Hebraic/Hebrew Genitive

Matthew Longhorn
Posts: 760
Joined: November 10th, 2017, 2:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Hebraic/Hebrew Genitive

Post by Matthew Longhorn »

Stephen Carlson wrote: January 8th, 2022, 6:03 pm I always take these now with a grain of salt. As fewer and fewer Biblical scholars are trained in Classical Greek, these comments pointing out the differences between Koine and Classical become less and less relevant.
Thanks for that. Good to know my skepticism isn't entirely just me. Wouldn't Turner and Blass/Debrunner have had this training?
Matthew Longhorn
Posts: 760
Joined: November 10th, 2017, 2:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Hebraic/Hebrew Genitive

Post by Matthew Longhorn »

RandallButh wrote: January 8th, 2022, 8:02 pm
I always take these now with a grain of salt.
qal vaHomer with Hebrew. Few NT scholars, old or new, are adequately trained in Hebrew. [I define "adequate" as able to comfortably read an article on Qumran or Mishnaic Hebrew in Hebrew.]
I believe you mentioned this to me in a previous post of mine when I was thinking about possible native language influence on people communicating in Greek. I take it that you think the Hebrew origins of this use of the genitive is plausible?
Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 1141
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: Hebraic/Hebrew Genitive

Post by Stirling Bartholomew »

Matthew Longhorn wrote: Ghassan Khalaf in his book “The Adnominal Genitive in the Pauline Corpus”, talking of the Hebrew Genitive states on page 94
This kind of adjectival genitive is called the “Hebrew” genitive, because it is rarely found in classical Greek. Its function and usage are almost exclusively Hebrew… Blass and Debrunner note, “Hebrew usage is thus reflected, in that this construction compensates for the nearly non-existent adjective. Classical Greek exhibits very sparse parallels in poetry only”… This is not to say that the usage is absolutely foreign to Greek: the usage is possible, but unusual in earlier periods of Greek until it is brought to the forefront in Hellenistic Greek by usage paralleled in Hebrew
He also cites Zerwick and Turner to this effect..
Would it be too much trouble to provide a formal representation of the syntax under discussion? Just throwing around tags like 'Adnominal Genitive' doesn't help. I'm guessing but don't know that the Hebrew 'construct state' followed by a substantive is what you're talking about. However I don't see anyone explicitly giving an example in Koine.

Postscript: I frequently find myself using the Hebrew construct state in English. I don't know if I use it in speech but I do when composing email.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
Matthew Longhorn
Posts: 760
Joined: November 10th, 2017, 2:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Hebraic/Hebrew Genitive

Post by Matthew Longhorn »

Stirling Bartholomew wrote: January 9th, 2022, 2:25 pm
Would it be too much trouble to provide a formal representation of the syntax under discussion? Just throwing around the tags like 'Adnominal Genitive' doesn't help. I'm guessing but don't know that the Hebrew 'construct state' followed by a substantive is what you're talking about. However I don't see anyone explicitly giving an example in Koine.
Sorry - I thought it was a common enough label that I could leave out examples out of laziness. “Adnominal Genitive” is in the title of his book, not something I was just using. Quite a number of his examples for the Hebrew Genitive include nouns that are semantically related to adjectives. Examples such as 1 Cor 2:4 4 καὶ ὁ λόγος μου καὶ τὸ κήρυγμά μου οὐκ ἐν ⸂πειθοῖ[ς] σοφίας [λόγοις] - here he identifies wisdom as being used adjectivally to mean “wise”, modifying “words” - so “wise words”
Some phrases such “coals of fire” in Rom 12:20 he sees in line with the REB (live coals) and NJB (red-hot coals) - τοῦτο γὰρ ποιῶν ἄνθρακας πυρὸς σωρεύσεις ἐπὶ ⸄τὴν κεφαλὴν. I guess here the relationship to an adjective is present with the noun fire in so far as “firey” is an option.

On page 97 he also references the use of the plural genitive as Hebrew adjective, stating
It seems that the force of this construction is founded upon the use of plural in order to intensify the idea. The plural strengthens the description applied to the specified object; hence the source of its relatedness to the adjective… the tendency here is that every descriptive plural plays the role of the adjective, especially if it is used as a genitive
. I am not entirely sure what he means by “especially if it is used as a genitive” which seems to imply that the non-genitive plurals can be used as genitives. Also, if every descriptive plural plays the role of the adjective, how is it especially so when used as a genitive?
An example he gives here is ανθρωπων in Matt 15:9 - διδάσκοντες διδασκαλίας ἐντάλματα ἀνθρώπων, or alternatively 1 Tim 4:1 - διδασκαλίαις δαιμονίων
An example of plurals used adjectivally even though not genitives is given in Matt 6:9 with “heavens” - Πάτερ ἡμῶν ὁ ἐν ⸂τοῖς οὐρανοῖς⸃


He goes on to state on page 101
The roots of the plural genitive adjectival meaning are firmly planted in the soil of the OT, The extensive use of the “Hebrew” genitive by Paul confirms the fact that he was influenced by OT idiom and that the study of the Hebrew Bible is imperative in order to understand the idioms of the NT language, especially the genitive
. I am not entirely convinced that Pauls’s usage does in fact confirm this without seeing further evidence around the extent of the use of this type of genitive usage in secular texts.
Stephen Carlson
Posts: 3351
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Hebraic/Hebrew Genitive

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Matthew Longhorn wrote: January 9th, 2022, 4:46 am
Stephen Carlson wrote: January 8th, 2022, 6:03 pm I always take these now with a grain of salt. As fewer and fewer Biblical scholars are trained in Classical Greek, these comments pointing out the differences between Koine and Classical become less and less relevant.
Thanks for that. Good to know my skepticism isn't entirely just me. Wouldn't Turner and Blass/Debrunner have had this training?
Yes, that’s why they point out the differences between Classical and Koine.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 1141
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: Hebraic/Hebrew Genitive

Post by Stirling Bartholomew »

Ok, I misunderstood. The topic under discussion is semantic not syntax. Zewick pp. 40-41, BDF §165 II, Turner pp 212-213. Turner discusses the Hebrew construct state elsewhere pp 34, 169, 170, 173, 179f.

I was framing the topic as a greek genitive functioning like the substantive following a Hebrew construct state. That's not what this is all about.

I have not the foggiest notion how one would go about searching for examples of the topic addressed by your author. Probably wouldn't be able to identify an example if I encountered one.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 1141
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: Hebraic/Hebrew Genitive

Post by Stirling Bartholomew »

Stirling Bartholomew wrote: January 9th, 2022, 5:38 pm Ok, I misunderstood.
I was also unaware that this was a continuation of a previous thread. I dropped into a discussion that had a history already.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
Matthew Longhorn
Posts: 760
Joined: November 10th, 2017, 2:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Hebraic/Hebrew Genitive

Post by Matthew Longhorn »

Stirling Bartholomew wrote: January 9th, 2022, 5:38 pm

I have not the foggiest notion how one would go about searching for examples of the topic addressed by your author. Probably wouldn't be able to identify an example if I encountered one.
Only way I can think of is looking up in a given corpus instances of nouns that have adjectival cognates and seeing whether or not they are found modifying another noun. Not the quickest thing to do
Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 2159
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Hebraic/Hebrew Genitive

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Matthew Longhorn wrote: January 10th, 2022, 4:55 am
Only way I can think of is looking up in a given corpus instances of nouns that have adjectival cognates and seeing whether or not they are found modifying another noun. Not the quickest thing to do
Or you can quote a classical grammar, i.e.:

THE GENITIVE PROPER WITH NOUNS

(ADNOMINAL GENITIVE)

1290. A substantive in the genitive limits the meaning of a substantive on which it depends.

1291. The genitive limits for the time being the scope of the substantive on which it depends by referring it to a particular class or description, or by regarding it as a part of a whole. The genitive is akin in meaning to the adjective and may often be translated by an epithet. Cp. στέφανος χρῡσίου with χρῡσοῦς στέφανος, φόβος πολεμίου with πολέμιος φόβος, τὸ εὖρος πλέθρου with τὸ εὖρος πλεθριαῖον (1035). But the use of the adjective is not everywhere parallel to that of the genitive.
Smyth, H. W. (1920). A Greek Grammar for Colleges (p. 313). American Book Company.

Here is an example from my Greek reading today, from Babrius 35:

Τοιοῦτο πολλῶν ἐστιν ἦθος ἀνθρώπων... "Such is the custom of many men..."
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Matthew Longhorn
Posts: 760
Joined: November 10th, 2017, 2:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Hebraic/Hebrew Genitive

Post by Matthew Longhorn »

Barry Hofstetter wrote: January 10th, 2022, 10:50 am
Or you can quote a classical grammar, i.e.:
One of these days I will start with those; I just keep forgetting!

It doesn’t however tell me whether this usage saw a major bump in frequency in the NT and Septuagint which might be attributed to Semitic influence.
Post Reply

Return to “Syntax and Grammar”