Ephesians 2:8 - τοῦτο...τὸ δῶρον

The forum for those who still struggle with morphology, syntax, and idiom, or who wish to discuss basic questions about the meaning of Greek texts, syntax, or words.
Forum rules
This is not a place for students to ask for the answers to their homework assignments. Users who do that may be banned.
Post Reply
rhutchin
Posts: 29
Joined: September 6th, 2011, 9:25 am

Ephesians 2:8 - τοῦτο...τὸ δῶρον

Post by rhutchin »

Ephesians 2:8

τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον

τοῦτο and δῶρον agree being neuter and singular.

So, why shouldn't we understand the phrase, "τοῦτο...τὸ δῶρον," to apply to the previous noun, πίστεως?
Roger Hutchinson
Devenios Doulenios
Posts: 230
Joined: May 31st, 2011, 5:11 pm
Location: Carlisle, Arkansas, USA
Contact:

Re: Ephesians 2:8 - τοῦτο...τὸ δῶρον

Post by Devenios Doulenios »

τοῦτο and δῶρον agree being neuter and singular.

So, why shouldn't we understand the phrase, "τοῦτο...τὸ δῶρον," to apply to the previous noun, πίστεως?
πιστεως is feminine singular (genitive case), from πιστις.
Dewayne Dulaney
Δεβένιος Δουλένιος

Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/

"Ὁδοὶ δύο εἰσί, μία τῆς ζωῆς καὶ μία τοῦ θανάτου."--Διδαχή Α, α'
rhutchin
Posts: 29
Joined: September 6th, 2011, 9:25 am

Re: Ephesians 2:8 - τοῦτο...τὸ δῶρον

Post by rhutchin »

So, πίστεως can never be a δῶρον.

How would you refer to πίστεως as a gift?
Roger Hutchinson
Jason Hare
Posts: 951
Joined: June 2nd, 2011, 5:28 pm
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel
Contact:

Re: Ephesians 2:8 - τοῦτο...τὸ δῶρον

Post by Jason Hare »

rhutchin wrote: November 6th, 2023, 4:56 pm So, πίστεως can never be a δῶρον.

How would you refer to πίστεως as a gift?
If it were referring to faith as the gift, it would say something like τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως καὶ αὕτη οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν ἀλλὰ θεοῦ ἐστὶ τὸ δῶρον (“For by grace you are saved through faith, and this [faith] is not from you but is God’s gift”). It should be clear that this is not what is written. The neuter τοῦτο is referring to the entire fact of the salvation.
Jason A. Hare
The Hebrew Café
Tel Aviv, Israel
rhutchin
Posts: 29
Joined: September 6th, 2011, 9:25 am

Re: Ephesians 2:8 - τοῦτο...τὸ δῶρον

Post by rhutchin »

A pronoun should agree with its antecedent in gender and number.

αὕτη does not agree with δῶρον in gender and number.

τοῦτο does agree with δῶρον in gender and number.

How could δῶρον be the antecedent of αὕτη as you constructed the phrase?

I am still confused about how to express a feminine πίστεως as a neuter δῶρον.
Roger Hutchinson
Devenios Doulenios
Posts: 230
Joined: May 31st, 2011, 5:11 pm
Location: Carlisle, Arkansas, USA
Contact:

Re: Ephesians 2:8 - τοῦτο...τὸ δῶρον

Post by Devenios Doulenios »

You may not have understood Jason. He is pointing out that in this case τουτο helps us see that its antecedent must be neuter, not feminine. If πιστις were the gift, Paul would likely have written αυτη not τουτο, since πιστις is feminine.
Dewayne Dulaney
Δεβένιος Δουλένιος

Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/

"Ὁδοὶ δύο εἰσί, μία τῆς ζωῆς καὶ μία τοῦ θανάτου."--Διδαχή Α, α'
Ken M. Penner
Posts: 881
Joined: May 12th, 2011, 7:50 am
Location: Antigonish, NS, Canada
Contact:

Re: Ephesians 2:8 - τοῦτο...τὸ δῶρον

Post by Ken M. Penner »

I'm going to go out on a limb here and disagree with Jason and Dewayne's objection on the basis of gender regarding τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον.
By itself, how would τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον be understood? "This is the gift of God, not from you"? Or "This gift is of God, not from you"?
In the first case, yes, you'd expect gender agreement between τοῦτο and its referent; the subject "this" and the complement "gift" don't have to agree. But in the second case both "this" and "gift" are the subject and have to agree; i.e., τοῦτο must agree with δῶρον no matter what its referent is in the first clause. By the grammatical gender conventions, "this gift" could be referring to any of the grace, the faith, or the whole clause (salvation).
Ken M. Penner
Professor and Chair of Religious Studies, St. Francis Xavier University
Co-Editor, Digital Biblical Studies
General Editor, Lexham English Septuagint
Co-Editor, Online Critical Pseudepigrapha pseudepigrapha.org
rhutchin
Posts: 29
Joined: September 6th, 2011, 9:25 am

Re: Ephesians 2:8 - τοῦτο...τὸ δῶρον

Post by rhutchin »

If we take τοῦτο to modify τὸ δῶρον giving the translation, "This not of yourselves but of God gift, is not of works," then τοῦτο and δῶρον must agree in gender and number.

However, the neuter, δῶρον, cannot refer to either grace, faith or the implied salvation, individually, since all three are feminine in gender and δῶρον can only refer to some combination of those terms.

Am I correct to think that the neuter, δῶρον, can only, or must, refer to some combination of the previous feminine gender terms given the way the text is written?

A second issue--

The phrase, "οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων," seems to reiterate the previous, "οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν," suggesting Paul's sensitivity to something being misunderstood in the introductory phrase, "τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως."

So, can πίστεως be seen as not being part of "τοῦτο...τὸ δῶρον," as some seem to want to do? Or, we take πίστεως necessarily to be part of τὸ δῶρον?
Roger Hutchinson
Eeli Kaikkonen
Posts: 611
Joined: June 2nd, 2011, 7:49 am
Location: Finland
Contact:

Re: Ephesians 2:8 - τοῦτο...τὸ δῶρον

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen »

δῶρον is a noun, not an adjective or a pronoun, it has its own gender which doesn't change (at least usually, and in any case it doesn't have to change). The same referent can be referred to by a feminine or masculine and a neuter noun. You have some serious confusion here.

Take a child as an example. The same person can be το τεκνον and η θυγατηρ or ο υιος.
Ken M. Penner
Posts: 881
Joined: May 12th, 2011, 7:50 am
Location: Antigonish, NS, Canada
Contact:

Re: Ephesians 2:8 - τοῦτο...τὸ δῶρον

Post by Ken M. Penner »

Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: November 8th, 2023, 1:22 pm The same referent can be referred to by a feminine or masculine and a neuter noun. You have some serious confusion here.
Take a child as an example. The same person can be το τεκνον and η θυγατηρ or ο υιος.
Right. I can see where the confusion came from; I think there were some misunderstandings in this thread both about what was being asked and what the answers mean.
Ken M. Penner
Professor and Chair of Religious Studies, St. Francis Xavier University
Co-Editor, Digital Biblical Studies
General Editor, Lexham English Septuagint
Co-Editor, Online Critical Pseudepigrapha pseudepigrapha.org
Post Reply

Return to “Beginners Forum”