Erasmian Pronunciation Variants

[Christopher M. Tully]

Hello,

I gather that the Erasmian isn't the favored pronunciation here, however I can't find a better place than this forum to post about it; and it seems I've already exhausted the discussion at my local college.

This thread is a continuation of my introduction where we began to speak about pronunciation. What I learned there is that after reviewing the discussions of ibiblio, I appear to be favoring the Erasmian; but within it there seem to be a few variants.

For the sake of this thread, I'm not interested in debating between the major pronunciations (Attic, Koine, Modern, etc.). But rather for those of you who use the Erasmian pronunciation, what variant do you use? Most notably, how do you pronounce the alphas, epsilons, iotas, omicrons, and omegas? Your opinion is appreciated and thank you for your time.

[Vasile Stancu]

Hello Christopher,
Since you asked (and I too am one who favours the principles upon which Erasmus built his pronunciation system), please find here (https://www.vasilestancu.ro/pronunciation.html) the description (with some audio recordings) of the system I am using. I am an autodidact, so please refer to the related material with 'due caution'...

[Christopher M. Tully]

Valise, Thank you very much for sharing your website, and I say your English is very good for a Romanian. I gather the system you prefer to use is a hybrid between the Erasmian and the Modern but where the Erasmian is dominant. Is that fair to say? Furthermore there are a few things I would like to happily discuss with you, and I'll try to be as brief as possible.

The first would be the pronunciation of the Omicron. What I notice is that your website describes the Omicron pronunciation "like o in top", but this is problematic because in my American English (and it doesn't seem very different in British English) we pronounce "top" the same as "father", which is the very pronunciation you gave for Alpha. Furthermore, in your recordings, I noticed that sometimes the Omicron was pronounced like "up, flutter, or son", and sometimes like "oboe". So we have here three ways of pronouncing the Omicron, no? And if we follow the principle that
"It is illogical to have several signs for the same sound, without some etimological motivation." This should be resolved.

Since "oboe" is occupied by Omega, and "father" is occupied by Alpha, what if we assign "son or up" to Omicron? Below is from Athenaze 1990:

[Vasile Stancu]

Good to hear from you, Christopher; thank you for your kind comments.

Regarding the "mix" that I use, it is indeed erasmian, basically, but I have adopted the sounds the modern Greeks use today. (I followed the tutorial named "Filoglossia" as a guide). Not all of today's language sounds, however, because I wanted to comply as much as possible with the principles of the erasmian system and the Ancient Greek accentuation rules.

I have added some additional reference in my website in relation with the pronunciation of Omicron: please check and let me know if this makes it more clear for the pronunciation of this letter.

For me, it is important to employ a certain pronunciation system; I believe I cannot really acquire a foreign language if I do not have a consistent acoustic representation of it. Therefore, I receive with gratitude any criticism in this respect, and will use it in order to improve my performance. Please point more exactly where you noticed that my pronunciation of the Omicron resembles "up, flutter, son, oboe". As I said above, I am keen to correcting myself.

As for the Omega, I try to pronounce it as a "double length" Omicron, and not like in "oboe/ˈəʊbəʊ/"; to my ear, the əʊ in "oboe" would sound like a diphthong rather than a long Omicron. And I think that assigning to Omicron the sound found in "up, flutter, son" would not be appropriate, because this sound is as well occupied by Alpha: it is the short Alpha, along with the long Alpha in "father".

[Christopher M. Tully]

Thank you Valise,

I certainly agree that one who learns any language aught to have a consistent way of pronouncing the words. I won't get to all the points made in your post, but firstly I would like to answer about the omicron sounds demonstrated on your website:

• I'm not sure about formal British English, but to my ear, the o's in "oboe" sound essentially the same as "norm, orange, and order"

• Also to my ear the British pronunciation of "pot" which you listed from Oxford, sounds to me essentially like the word "putt, flutter, or up"

• Although somewhat subtle, I hear the Iong alpha sound "father, brawl, all" in your Ancient Greek pronunciations of: ἄγκιστρον, ἒ ψιλόν, ξύλον

• I hear the long o sound "norm, orange, order" in your Ancient Greek pronunciations of: εὔκολος, ὄρος, ῥᾴδιος

• I hear the short o sound "son, up, flutter" in your Ancient Greek pronunciations of: θέατρον, κενός, ὕμνος

[Vasile Stancu]

Hi Christopher,

The two of us clearly use different standards/filters in judging the sounds that we hear/produce. Opinions on this subject cannot be reconciled, I believe, unless we refer to the same phonetic system. Examples are normally given by every manual where pronunciation is discussed, making reference to words in the language of the target reader. However, such examples should only be taken as approximate: the actual sounds to be used by the student should imitate the sounds used by the actual speakers of the respective language. When I study English, for instance, I give up the sounds that are specific to Romanian and adopt those that are specific to English. And I do a lot of listening and repeating until I am confident that my reading is as close as possible to the source I imitate.

The problem with Ancient Greek is that there is no genuine speaker today for us to imitate. Of all the options that I have at hand as a student of Ancient Greek, I choose to appeal to Modern Greek, and pick up/imitate all the sounds which are applicable to my study. (Tutorials are plentifully available in this respect). Do I apply any deviations or changes? Yes, I feel I have to do so whenever I encounter any contradiction with the principles that I had chosen beforehand. Two sets of principles are my filter for this process: the Erasmian principles and the Ancient Greek accentuation rules. So the mix I actually use is Erasmian + Greek sounds. (By "Greek sounds" I mean sounds not laden with any accent that would appear to be foreign to a Greek today).

[Christopher M. Tully]

Well Vasile,

We seem to be having some trouble agreeing, I'm disappointed but not surprised. One thing before moving on: You've listed the British pronunciation of "top" as being the closest example of how to pronounce the omicron. You seem to disagree that it makes the same sound as "putt or son", but could you cite any other examples of American English words which have the same sound as the British saying of "top"?

[Stephen Carlson]

You've listed the British pronunciation of "top" as being the closest example of how to pronounce the omicron. You seem to disagree that it makes the same sound as "putt or son", but could you cite any other examples of American English words which have the same sound as the British saying of "top"?

General American lacks the “short o” sound of British “top.” If you rhyme “father” and “bother,” you don’t have the British short o.

[Vasile Stancu]

Hi Christopher,

Please do not be disappointed; I know how hot discussions on this topic may become and I hope we do not get there. English is foreign language to me, so I feel uneasy to explain so subtle nuances to a native English speaker: you would "beat" me very easily. Instead, how about checking the other alternative I indicated, i.e. the Greek voice pronouncing ορθόδοξος and ορχήστρα? Could you try to listen and imitate that reading? It is that kind of sound which I want to adopt as "my" omicron; the other examples are, as I said, approximate.

Returning to the examples selected in my material using English words, I think that whatever conclusions I drew by checking other American English words as alternative examples would not have too much value for anybody. On the other hand, it would be very profitable for me if you further checked the material in my website and let me know if you find some other examples that are strange to a native English speaker. It might be that I ventured too far publishing that material in English, which is not my native language.

[Christopher M. Tully]

Thank you Vasile,

I'm traveling now and I will listen to those more closely when I return home where I have some good quality headphones.

"General American lacks the “short o” sound of British “top.” If you rhyme “father” and “bother,” you don’t have the British short o." Stephen do you have any way of demonstrating what a short o really sounds like?