Ah! Sorry. I was thinking post-contract, and that your line was a 'cut-and-pasto' (as opposed to 'typo'). Your expression is the more essential way to state it.cwconrad wrote:I'm not quite sure what is intended by that last line. What I intended to indicate was that contract verbs in -εῖν involve a contraction of ε + ειν, contract verbs in -οῦν involve a contraction of ο + ειν and contract verbs in -ᾶν involve a contraction of α + ειν. The infinitives are each contractions of the stem vowel ε, ο, or α with the infinitive ending -ειν.Thomas Dolhanty wrote:-ε-ειν, -ο-ουν, -α-αν respectivelycwconrad wrote: ... That's one reason why many of us have been voicing a preference for the present infinitive as the lexical form for verbs; the forms ποιεῖν, δηλοῦν, τιμᾶν clearly indicate that these are contract verbs with stems in -ε-ειν, -ο-ειν, -α-ειν, respectively.
Question about contract verbs (first principal part)
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Re: Question about contract verbs (first principal part)
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Re: Question about contract verbs (first principal part)
Forgive me for pursuing this a bit further, but when I look at this as a pre-contract it seems like the ending that is added to the tense stem is not "ειν" but rather "εν". Or have I misunderstood Smyth 469? The "εν" contracts as expected in each case (εεν => ειν; οεν΄=> ουν; αεν => αν), whereas the "ειν" leaves you with the extra ιοτα.cwconrad wrote:I'm not quite sure what is intended by that last line. What I intended to indicate was that contract verbs in -εῖν involve a contraction of ε + ειν, contract verbs in -οῦν involve a contraction of ο + ειν and contract verbs in -ᾶν involve a contraction of α + ειν. The infinitives are each contractions of the stem vowel ε, ο, or α with the infinitive ending -ειν.Thomas Dolhanty wrote:-ε-ειν, -ο-ουν, -α-αν respectivelycwconrad wrote: ... That's one reason why many of us have been voicing a preference for the present infinitive as the lexical form for verbs; the forms ποιεῖν, δηλοῦν, τιμᾶν clearly indicate that these are contract verbs with stems in -ε-ειν, -ο-ειν, -α-ειν, respectively.
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Re: Question about contract verbs (first principal part)
cwconrad wrote: ... That's one reason why many of us have been voicing a preference for the present infinitive as the lexical form for verbs; the forms ποιεῖν, δηλοῦν, τιμᾶν clearly indicate that these are contract verbs with stems in -ε-ειν, -ο-ειν, -α-ειν, respectively.
Thomas Dolhanty wrote: -ε-ειν, -ο-ουν, -α-αν respectively
cwconrad wrote:I'm not quite sure what is intended by that last line. What I intended to indicate was that contract verbs in -εῖν involve a contraction of ε + ειν, contract verbs in -οῦν involve a contraction of ο + ειν and contract verbs in -ᾶν involve a contraction of α + ειν. The infinitives are each contractions of the stem vowel ε, ο, or α with the infinitive ending -ειν.
I'm glad that you do want to pursue this further; the facts are indeed more complicated. Yes, the infinitive ending involved in these present infinitives is -εν (Smyth would not mislead you!). However, we're not dealing with -μι verbs here (they take -ναι as an infinitive ending), but rather with thematic verbs that are conjugated with an intervening "thematic" vowel ε/ο (ο before a nasal ending: 1 sg. -ο-μ which becomes -ον, 1 pl. -ο-μεν, 3 πλ. -ο-ντi which becomes -ουσι (τ before ι becomes -σ-; -ν- between ο and σ undergoes compensatory lengthening to become -ου- so that -οντι turns into -ουσι); elsewhere the -ε- is found, and that is also true of the infinitive, so that the infinitive of a thematic verb is formed with the present stem + thematic vowel ε + infinitive ending -εν: λύ-ε-εν becomes λύειν after contraction of the two ε's. Consequently the contract verbs have present active infinitive formed with stems ending in α, ε, ο to which the ending -ειν, itself already a contraction of ε-εν.Thomas Dolhanty wrote: Forgive me for pursuing this a bit further, but when I look at this as a pre-contract it seems like the ending that is added to the tense stem is not "ειν" but rather "εν". Or have I misunderstood Smyth 469? The "εν" contracts as expected in each case (εεν => ειν; οεν΄=> ουν; αεν => αν), whereas the "ειν" leaves you with the extra ιοτα.
As an aside, I might just note that my first Greek teacher was a fantastic grad student at Tulane, a graduate from Southern Baptist Seminary in Louisville who had himself learned in the tradition of A.T. Robertson there; when he taught Homer's Iliad in my second-year class, it was a class in what I like to call "the archaeology of the Greek language." One of the neat little snippets of information he taught us was that all of the infinitives one finds in Greek can be seen in combination in the Homeric infinitive of εἰμί: ἔμεναι: among the various infinitive endings in Greek we find the whole group -εμεναι, -αι, -ναι, -εναι, -μεναι, -εμεν, and -εν. The MP -σθαι is a combination of the MP infix -σθ- and -αι. All of this is information that is not really often very useful, but it's fun -- if you like this sort of thing.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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Re: Question about contract verbs (first principal part)
With even more detail, the infinitive ending -ειν involves one those cases where "the sigma goes on vacation": -ειν < -εεν < *-εhεν < *-εσεν.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
Re: Question about contract verbs (first principal part)
Just out of curiosity, Stephen, are you deriving this from Sihler, §552A, p. 608?Stephen Carlson wrote:With even more detail, the infinitive ending -ειν involves one those cases where "the sigma goes on vacation": -ειν < -εεν < *-εhεν < *-εσεν.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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Re: Question about contract verbs (first principal part)
Not directly (I thought it was pretty standard), but Sihler there makes a clear case for that development.cwconrad wrote:Just out of curiosity, Stephen, are you deriving this from Sihler, §552A, p. 608?Stephen Carlson wrote:With even more detail, the infinitive ending -ειν involves one those cases where "the sigma goes on vacation": -ειν < -εεν < *-εhεν < *-εσεν.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
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Re: Question about contract verbs (first principal part)
I'm just getting back to this now, and I have a certain appreciation for the "going deeper" - into the abyss - discussion from the other thread. Solid ground suddenly becomes the edge of a sinkhole! All of the above seems quite basic, except (1) that I wasn't really clear about how the present infinitive was formed, and (2) some of the explanations of how ending vowels/consonants resolve are different that what I've read elsewhere. With regard to the infinitive, I knew, of course, that the morpheme is -ειν but didn't understand where that comes from.cwconrad wrote:I'm glad that you do want to pursue this further; the facts are indeed more complicated. Yes, the infinitive ending involved in these present infinitives is -εν (Smyth would not mislead you!). However, we're not dealing with -μι verbs here (they take -ναι as an infinitive ending), but rather with thematic verbs that are conjugated with an intervening "thematic" vowel ε/ο (ο before a nasal ending: 1 sg. -ο-μ which becomes -ον, 1 pl. -ο-μεν, 3 πλ. -ο-ντi which becomes -ουσι (τ before ι becomes -σ-; -ν- between ο and σ undergoes compensatory lengthening to become -ου- so that -οντι turns into -ουσι); elsewhere the -ε- is found, and that is also true of the infinitive, so that the infinitive of a thematic verb is formed with the present stem + thematic vowel ε + infinitive ending -εν: λύ-ε-εν becomes λύειν after contraction of the two ε's. Consequently the contract verbs have present active infinitive formed with stems ending in α, ε, ο to which the ending -ειν, itself already a contraction of ε-εν.
So, how should think of contract verbs forming the infinitive? Is the following correct, and if so what is the order of contracting?
- λυ + ε + εν => λύειν
- ποιε + ε + εν =>
- αγαπα + ε + εν
- πληρο + ε + εν
With regard to the formation of endings, I found some of your explanations different from what I've encountered elsewhere. I suspect that this is because what I've read is further 'downstream'. For example here is Mounce's explanation for what happens with the 3pl"
Mounce BBG 3rd edition pg 16, note 9 wrote:The nu in the original ending drops out because of the following sigma (just as it does in the accusative plural of second declension nouns), and the connecting vowel omicron lengthens to ou to compensate for the loss (λυονσι ▸ λυοσι ▸ λύουσι). It is important to remember that the ending actually is nsi because it will make other forms easier to remember.
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Re: Question about contract verbs (first principal part)
I've never heard it described that way before.Stephen Carlson wrote:With even more detail, the infinitive ending -ειν involves one those cases where "the sigma goes on vacation": -ειν < -εεν < *-εhεν < *-εσεν.
I always thought of it as getting kicked out.
Your expression is much nicer
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Re: Question about contract verbs (first principal part)
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:The Mounce reference in my post above should be: BBG, 3rd Edition, Ch. 16, pg. 133, note 9.
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Re: Question about contract verbs (first principal part)
It would be easier, I think, to think about the resultant form as a linkage of the present stem and an infinitive ending that is already -ειν, result of contraction of the thematic vowel ε and the infinitival ending -εν. Consequently:Thomas Dolhanty wrote:I'm just getting back to this now, and I have a certain appreciation for the "going deeper" - into the abyss - discussion from the other thread. Solid ground suddenly becomes the edge of a sinkhole! All of the above seems quite basic, except (1) that I wasn't really clear about how the present infinitive was formed, and (2) some of the explanations of how ending vowels/consonants resolve are different that what I've read elsewhere. With regard to the infinitive, I knew, of course, that the morpheme is -ειν but didn't understand where that comes from.cwconrad wrote:I'm glad that you do want to pursue this further; the facts are indeed more complicated. Yes, the infinitive ending involved in these present infinitives is -εν (Smyth would not mislead you!). However, we're not dealing with -μι verbs here (they take -ναι as an infinitive ending), but rather with thematic verbs that are conjugated with an intervening "thematic" vowel ε/ο (ο before a nasal ending: 1 sg. -ο-μ which becomes -ον, 1 pl. -ο-μεν, 3 πλ. -ο-ντi which becomes -ουσι (τ before ι becomes -σ-; -ν- between ο and σ undergoes compensatory lengthening to become -ου- so that -οντι turns into -ουσι); elsewhere the -ε- is found, and that is also true of the infinitive, so that the infinitive of a thematic verb is formed with the present stem + thematic vowel ε + infinitive ending -εν: λύ-ε-εν becomes λύειν after contraction of the two ε's. Consequently the contract verbs have present active infinitive formed with stems ending in α, ε, ο to which the ending -ειν, itself already a contraction of ε-εν.
So, how should think of contract verbs forming the infinitive? Is the following correct, and if so what is the order of contracting?
Does one contract the vowels 'out from the stem'? For example ποιε + ε + εν => ποιει + εν => ? From what you've said above, it sounds like you are adding the -ειν to the stem, in which case the stem epsilon in this verb would disappear. Is there a general guideline for which vowels to contract first when there are more than two vowels involved?]
- λυ + ε + εν => λύειν
- ποιε + ε + εν =>
- αγαπα + ε + εν
- πληρο + ε + εν
- λυ + ειν => λύειν
- ποιε + ειν => ποιεῖν
- αγαπα + ειν => ἀγαπᾶν
- πληρο + ειν => πληροῦν
It also needs to be understood that this accounting for these infinitives depends upon what happened in Greek linguistic history centuries before the Hellenistic Koine era; they're sort of like explanations of why we pronounce English "enough" as if it were spelled "ee-nuff" and why we pronounce English "although" as if it were spelled "all-tho". There is a stubborn, altogether ornery inertia in traditional English orthography to preserve in written texts forms of words that were spoken centuries ago but no longer. The same is true of conventional Koine Greek orthography, which preserves the spelling in terms of the conventions established by an Athenian law of spelling reform of 403 BCE. The Greek papyri that were not written by government scribes tell a different story of commoners writing down Greek words with a spelling more representative of the way they pronounced them.
As a now-long-retired teacher of Greek, I'm of two minds about this claim that it is "important to remember" these factors; I'm now inclined to think that these are matters of interest and value only to antiquarians of the language and that new learners should simply learn the paradigms as they are spelled out conventionally. My experience is that, although I am myself fascinated by the "archaeology of the Greek language", exposing beginners to these factors is more confusing than useful.Thomas Dolhanty wrote:With regard to the formation of endings, I found some of your explanations different from what I've encountered elsewhere. I suspect that this is because what I've read is further 'downstream'. For example here is Mounce's explanation for what happens with the 3pl"
Mounce BBG 3rd edition pg 16, note 9 wrote:The nu in the original ending drops out because of the following sigma (just as it does in the accusative plural of second declension nouns), and the connecting vowel omicron lengthens to ou to compensate for the loss (λυονσι ▸ λυοσι ▸ λύουσι). It is important to remember that the ending actually is nsi because it will make other forms easier to remember.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)