Question. 1 Corinthians 15:52 … καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται ἄφθαρτοι

How do I work out the meaning of a Greek text? How can I best understand the forms and vocabulary in this particular text?
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Larry Wise
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Question. 1 Corinthians 15:52 … καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται ἄφθαρτοι

Post by Larry Wise »

Greetings,

This single phrase in 1 Corinthians 15:52 --- καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται ἄφθαρτοι --- seems always to be translated in its presented sequential Greek-text word order of appearance --- and the dead shall-be-raised incorruptible. Thus all translations make orderly sense.

Question is: except for possible violation of sequential order, is there any reason why the following translation could not be used? “and the incorruptible dead shall-be-raised”.

Thank you
Larry Wise
S Walch
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Re: Question. 1 Corinthians 15:52 … καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται ἄφθαρτοι

Post by S Walch »

is there any reason why the following translation could not be used? “and the incorruptible dead shall-be-raised”.
Yes. For it to say "the incorruptible dead" the sequence of the noun and adjective would have to be either:

οἱ ἄφθαρτοι νεκροὶ

or

οἱ νεκροὶ οἱ ἄφθαρτοι

Compare the Greek of John 10:14 ("the good shepherd") and 1 Corinthians 15:45 ("the first man").
Jason Hare
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Re: Question. 1 Corinthians 15:52 … καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται ἄφθαρτοι

Post by Jason Hare »

It is called the "attributive" position of adjectives. No, it cannot mean that in this verse.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Question. 1 Corinthians 15:52 … καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται ἄφθαρτοι

Post by Jonathan Robie »

As S. Walch and Jason have said, there are two possible orders - analogous to English, actually. In English or in Greek, they are called and "Attributve Position of the Adjective" and "Predicate Position of the Adjective".

Here's an explanation for English:

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/internet-grammar/ ... tribut.htm

Here's NT-Greek:

https://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/adjectiv.htm

I like Mike Aubrey's explanation, if you want more depth:

https://koine-greek.com/2008/02/10/pred ... djectives/

And here:

https://koine-greek.com/2008/11/08/disc ... t-part-ii/
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Larry Wise
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Re: Question. 1 Corinthians 15:52 … καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται ἄφθαρτοι

Post by Larry Wise »

Wow, thank you all, S. Walch, Jason Hare, and Jonathan Robie, for your attentive, quick replies. It has taken me some time to get through links offered as reference. Much of the information is general in nature and I could not relate most to the question at hand. However, I can see I was trying to make “shall-be-raising”(ἐγερθήσονται) function as a linking verb. When a linking verb is used the qualities of the predicate adjective may be reflective to the subject, but such is not the situation currently under review.

I have not found other clauses, of similar construction, in the NT or LXX as stated in this portion of 1 Corinthians 15:52. Much easier is it to find predicate adjectives with linking verbs, but I find no reason to simply chuck this clause into that category of Greek.

This clause in 1 Corinthians 15:52, to be clear, perhaps mistakenly so, flows like this. Subject is “the dead-ones”(οἱ νεκροὶ), the predicate consisting of a verb “shall-be-raising”(ἐγερθήσονται) and complement has “incorruptible-ones”(ἄφθαρτοι). Oh, and a καὶ conjunction to start the clause rolling along.

That ἄφθαρτοι is part of predicate is clear. If this is to be understood as an adjective predicate then some kind of linking verb would assist ἄφθαρτοι in modifying οἱ νεκροὶ. However, ἐγερθήσονται is not a linking verb. All the while ἄφθαρτοι lingers in a predicate ‘position’ as a complement, definitely not in the subject attributive ‘position’.

Since there has be expressed rejection to translating the clause as “the incorruptible dead-ones shall-be-raising”, then an elliptical pronoun for ἄφθαρτοι is assumed. Inserting a pronoun, the likes of “these” or “those”, would fill out the complement. Thus the clause could be rendered : “the dead-ones shall-be-raising (those) incorruptible-ones.”

Which pronoun would be best to use is beyond my understanding.

The dead-ones shall be raised, but this action only joins them to the status of living-ones, not incorruptible-ones. If they were among the incorruptible living-ones prior to joining the dead-ones, then shall-they-be-raised back to incorruptible living-ones. That’s all the raising shall, and can, do - take dead-ones out of the temporary state of death by making living-ones. Then, and thereafter, the change into immortality occurs.
Larry Wise
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Question. 1 Corinthians 15:52 … καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται ἄφθαρτοι

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Larry Wise wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 5:57 pm This clause in 1 Corinthians 15:52, to be clear, perhaps mistakenly so, flows like this. Subject is “the dead-ones”(οἱ νεκροὶ), the predicate consisting of a verb “shall-be-raising”(ἐγερθήσονται) and complement has “incorruptible-ones”(ἄφθαρτοι). Oh, and a καὶ conjunction to start the clause rolling along.

That ἄφθαρτοι is part of predicate is clear. If this is to be understood as an adjective predicate then some kind of linking verb would assist ἄφθαρτοι in modifying οἱ νεκροὶ. However, ἐγερθήσονται is not a linking verb. All the while ἄφθαρτοι lingers in a predicate ‘position’ as a complement, definitely not in the subject attributive ‘position’.
I suspect the terminology may be confusing you.

These are both noun phrases. Neither contains a predicate. Neither contains a verb. Both mean "the incorruptible dead", there is no difference in meaning:

οἱ ἄφθαρτοι νεκροὶ
οἱ νεκροὶ οἱ ἄφθαρτοι

You can then add a verb to say that "the incorruptible dead" shall be raised:

ἐγερθήσονται οἱ ἄφθαρτοι νεκροὶ
ἐγερθήσονται οἱ νεκροὶ οἱ ἄφθαρτοι

Or you could add it to the end:

οἱ ἄφθαρτοι νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται
οἱ νεκροὶ οἱ ἄφθαρτοι ἐγερθήσονται

Again, no difference in meaning for any of these pairs. But the verse does not use any of these forms, it reads:

οἱ νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται ἄφθαρτοι

subject: οἱ νεκροὶ
verb: ἐγερθήσονται
adjective: ἄφθαρτοι

I suspect the reason for your original question is that you are looking for a noun for that adjective to modify, and that noun is not explicit. It is the dead who have been raised who then become ἄφθαρτοι. Before the resurrection, the dead are corruptible, after the resurrection, they are incorruptible, as the following two verses make clear:

53 δεῖ γὰρ τὸ φθαρτὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσασθαι ἀφθαρσίαν καὶ τὸ θνητὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσασθαι ἀθανασίαν. 54 ὅταν δὲ τὸ φθαρτὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσηται ἀφθαρσίαν καὶ τὸ θνητὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσηται ἀθανασίαν, τότε γενήσεται ὁ λόγος ὁ γεγραμμένος,
Κατεπόθη ὁ θάνατος εἰς νῖκος.
55 ποῦ σου, θάνατε, τὸ νῖκος;
ποῦ σου, θάνατε, τὸ κέντρον;

That's even clearer earlier in verses 42-44:

42 Οὕτως καὶ ἡ ἀνάστασις τῶν νεκρῶν. σπείρεται ἐν φθορᾷ, ἐγείρεται ἐν ἀφθαρσίᾳ· 43 σπείρεται ἐν ἀτιμίᾳ, ἐγείρεται ἐν δόξῃ· σπείρεται ἐν ἀσθενείᾳ, ἐγείρεται ἐν δυνάμει· 44 σπείρεται σῶμα ψυχικόν, ἐγείρεται σῶμα πνευματικόν. εἰ ἔστιν σῶμα ψυχικόν, ἔστιν καὶ πνευματικόν.

Does that help?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Larry Wise
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Re: Question. 1 Corinthians 15:52 … καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται ἄφθαρτοι

Post by Larry Wise »

Greetings Johnathan Robie,

You have well established what this clause (καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται ἄφθαρτοι) is not and can not be. Yes, what I originally proposed is inconsistent with the Greek text.

Yes, you are correct, I am looking for noun, pronoun, or something, as you wrote “for that adjective [ἄφθαρτοι] to modify and that noun is not explicit” - bracketed content added. I believe I offered this idea in my previous post:
‘Since there has be expressed rejection to translating the clause as “the incorruptible dead-ones shall-be-raising”, then an elliptical pronoun for ἄφθαρτοι is assumed. Inserting a pronoun, the likes of “these” or “those”, would fill out the complement. Thus the clause could be rendered : “the dead-ones shall-be-raising (those) incorruptible-ones.”’


What you post after the word “explicit” does not give the answer for the explicitly ‘missing’ noun, pronoun, or other, as near as I can figure. It does go afield into contextual related thinking which is beyond my interest at this posting, unless such is needed to bring light to the missing noun, pronoun, etc. As of yet, I know not what this missing piece might be.

So far, I have currently found inherent in the clause καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται ἄφθαρτοι that the dead-ones are incorruptible-ones that shall-be-raising. Raising from dead-ones to living-ones is more consistent than ‘changing into incorruption’. Granted, most often it is assumed, from a contextual viewing, that the dead-ones shall-be-raising (read: “shall-be-changed into”) incorruptible-ones, but, as you have demonstrated, contextual pointers outside of the clause (καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται ἄφθαρτοι) are necessary for that justification.

A rhetorical question might be asked, “Was the Lord Jesus Christ incorruptible or corruptible when he was placed in the tomb?” If he was incorruptible and dead, then he was an “incorruptible dead-one”. After his time in the tomb he was raised from an incorruptible dead-one to became a living-one, still incorruptible, except for justifiable reason(s).

Well, there was a couple of things I was hoping to avoid when posting on this forum. One, protracted exchanges about Greek grammar, terminology, and its nuances, because I am not formally trained therein. Two, stay focused on the given clause, in this case: καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται ἄφθαρτοι, without going into contextual interpretations.
Larry Wise
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Re: Question. 1 Corinthians 15:52 … καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται ἄφθαρτοι

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Larry Wise wrote: September 4th, 2021, 2:10 pm What you post after the word “explicit” does not give the answer for the explicitly ‘missing’ noun, pronoun, or other, as near as I can figure. It does go afield into contextual related thinking which is beyond my interest at this posting, unless such is needed to bring light to the missing noun, pronoun, etc. As of yet, I know not what this missing piece might be.
When something is not explicit, you have to understand the rest to fill in the gaps. The resurrected bodies of those who have been raised are in view where the adjective ἄφθαρτοι is used. And yes, context matters, "a text without a context is only a pretext."
Larry Wise wrote: September 4th, 2021, 2:10 pmSo far, I have currently found inherent in the clause καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται ἄφθαρτοι that the dead-ones are incorruptible-ones that shall-be-raising. Raising from dead-ones to living-ones is more consistent than ‘changing into incorruption’. Granted, most often it is assumed, from a contextual viewing, that the dead-ones shall-be-raising (read: “shall-be-changed into”) incorruptible-ones, but, as you have demonstrated, contextual pointers outside of the clause (καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται ἄφθαρτοι) are necessary for that justification.
You are building glosses for individual words in English, adding in information to take things like tense into account. Are you doing that just to communicate, or is this the methodology you use to understand the text? If the latter, I would encourage you to work in the other direction. Consider the issues we have seen with the structure of Greek phrases - once you learn how these phrases work, you won't make that mistake again. And this is just one of a zillion examples. If you want to understand the Greek text, it's important to keep your focus on the Greek text per se.
Larry Wise wrote: September 4th, 2021, 2:10 pm Well, there was a couple of things I was hoping to avoid when posting on this forum. One, protracted exchanges about Greek grammar, terminology, and its nuances, because I am not formally trained therein. Two, stay focused on the given clause, in this case: καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται ἄφθαρτοι, without going into contextual interpretations.
You don't need a degree or anything, but if you don't want to learn Greek at a fairly solid level, I would encourage you to trust the translations and the better commentaries and others who do know the language. And I would also encourage you to read any text in context. Even at the most basic level, you cannot interpret one clause apart from the sentence it occurs in.

If you want to avoid protracted exchanges about Greek grammar, terminology, and its nuances, then B-Greek might not be the best place for you to post your questions. This is, after all, a forum about the Greek language, for people who want to go there. Even in the beginner's forum, we will answer a question like yours by trying to help you learn how Greek phrases work, under the assumption that you are trying to learn the language.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Larry Wise
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Re: Question. 1 Corinthians 15:52 … καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται ἄφθαρτοι

Post by Larry Wise »

Greetings Jonathan Robie,

Thank you for your warm reply. Warm admonitions from your greater Greek understandings - I would do well to heed. Finding and maintaining balance in all you have encouraged me toward takes time and practice.

Truly, I thank you Jonathan, for your contributed time toward adjusting my understanding. There are a lot people in this world, that you have given your personal time, thought, and energy in this direction is quite meaningful - at least to one, me…
Larry Wise
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