1 Cor. 15:8 — Paul and the abortion
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This is a beginner's forum - see the Koine Greek forum for more advanced discussion of Greek texts. Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up.
When answering questions in this forum, keep it simple, and aim your responses to the level of the person asking the question.
1 Cor. 15:8 — Paul and the abortion
ἔσχατον δὲ πάντων ὡσπερεὶ τῷ ἐκτρώματι ὤφθη κἀμοί. (1Co 15:8 BGT)
And last of all, as like to the abortion, he appeared also to me.
The word ἐκτρώματι generally does seem to be used for a baby that dies more than a baby that is born in a strange way. To try to make it make sense many translators connect this to the idea of being born at the wrong time or way, but other commentators point out there is no extant example of it being used for any baby that did not die, and the three uses in the LXX are all clearly dead babies.
Could the dative here be translated as "as pertaining to an abortion" rather than "as appearing to the abortion," in other words, Paul thought of himself as connected to an abortion.
Any thoughts would be appreciated!
And last of all, as like to the abortion, he appeared also to me.
The word ἐκτρώματι generally does seem to be used for a baby that dies more than a baby that is born in a strange way. To try to make it make sense many translators connect this to the idea of being born at the wrong time or way, but other commentators point out there is no extant example of it being used for any baby that did not die, and the three uses in the LXX are all clearly dead babies.
Could the dative here be translated as "as pertaining to an abortion" rather than "as appearing to the abortion," in other words, Paul thought of himself as connected to an abortion.
Any thoughts would be appreciated!
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Re: 1 Cor. 15:8 — Paul and the abortion
Just reading the sentence through it would seem inconsistent with the rest of the datives where the sense is "appeared to x", "appeared to y" and so on.Dizerner wrote: ↑September 1st, 2021, 7:40 am ἔσχατον δὲ πάντων ὡσπερεὶ τῷ ἐκτρώματι ὤφθη κἀμοί. (1Co 15:8 BGT)
And last of all, as like to the abortion, he appeared also to me.
The word ἐκτρώματι generally does seem to be used for a baby that dies more than a baby that is born in a strange way. To try to make it make sense many translators connect this to the idea of being born at the wrong time or way, but other commentators point out there is no extant example of it being used for any baby that did not die, and the three uses in the LXX are all clearly dead babies.
Could the dative here be translated as "as pertaining to an abortion" rather than "as appearing to the abortion," in other words, Paul thought of himself as connected to an abortion.
Any thoughts would be appreciated!
Someone might give you a better grammatical explanation as to why not but to me it does not seem a natural way to read the dative in this context.
Thx
D
Re: 1 Cor. 15:8 — Paul and the abortion
Fair point, although we'd have to suspect the use of metaphor in this instance, which the others are not.Daniel Semler wrote: ↑September 1st, 2021, 10:50 am Just reading the sentence through it would seem inconsistent with the rest of the datives where the sense is "appeared to x", "appeared to y" and so on.
Someone might give you a better grammatical explanation as to why not but to me it does not seem a natural way to read the dative in this context.
Thx
D
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Re: 1 Cor. 15:8 — Paul and the abortion
I'm not at all sure I know what this means, but some commentaries do mention abortion. Here's a summary of various commentaries from the Exegetical Summaries - the paragraph is a survey of different ways it has been interpreted, the brackets identify the commentaries that understand it a particular way.
BDAG is helpful here:ἔκτρωμα (LN 23.55, 64.13) (BAGD p. 246): ‘untimely birth’ [BAGD, LN], ‘an aborted fetus’ [NIGTC], ‘miscarriage’ [BAGD]. The phrase τῷ ἐκτρώματι ‘the untimely birth’ is translated ‘one untimely born’ [AB, NTC; NRSV], ‘untimely born Apostle’ [ICC], ‘one who was born at the wrong time’ [LN (23.55, 64.13); CEV, NET], ‘one born out of due time’ [KJV], ‘one hurried into the world before his time’ [HNTC], ‘I had been born at the wrong time’ [NLT], ‘one born out of the normal course’ [NAB], ‘someone whose birth was abnormal’ [LN (64.13)); TEV], ‘one abnormally born’ [NIV], ‘a child born abnormally’ [NJB], ‘the dead fetus’ [Lns]. The phrase ὡσπερεὶ τῷ ἐκτρώματι, ‘as though to the untimely birth’ was translated ‘as though I were born abnormally late’ [ISV], ‘it was like a sudden, abnormal birth’ [REB], ‘as if to an abortive creature’ [Herm], ‘abortion though I was and far from ready for new life’ [TNT].
Trail, R. (2008). An Exegetical Summary of 1 Corinthians 10–16 (2nd ed., p. 269). Dallas, TX: SIL International.
ἔκτρωμα, ατος, τό (Aristot., De Gen. An. 4, 5, 4 [773b, 18]; PTebt III, 800, 30 [142 B.C.], on this s. New Docs 2, 82, prob. ‘miscarriage’; Num 12:12; Job 3:16; Eccl 6:3; Philo, Leg. All. 1, 76; Phryn. p. 208f Lob., w. preference for ἄμβλωμα ‘abortion’) a birth that violates the normal period of gestation (whether induced as abortion, or natural premature birth or miscarriage [cp. Hesych. ἐκ.=παιδίον νεκρὸν ἄωρον; also the verb ἐκτιτρώσκειν PCairGoodsp 15, 15f of a mother who miscarried because of violence done to her], or birth beyond term) untimely birth. So Paul calls himself, perh. taking up an insult (ἔ. as a term of contempt in Tzetzes [XII A.D.], Hist. Var. 5, 515 Kiessl.; Straub 48f) hurled at him by his opponents 1 Cor 15:8 (in any case the point relates to some deficiency in the infant [cp. Hos 13:13, MSchaefer, ZNW 85, ’94, 207–17, not an insult]: Paul confesses himself to be unworthy of being called a full-fledged apostle); imitated IRo 9:2. ESchwartz, NGG 1907, 276 refers to Eus., HE 5, 1, 45. Cp. AvHarnack, SBBerlAk 1922, p. 72, 3; AFridrichsen, Paulus abortivus: Symb. Philol. f. ODanielsson ’32, 78–85; JMunck, NT Essays: memorial vol. for TManson, ’59, 180–93; PvonderOsten-Sacken, ZNW 64, ’73, 245–62 esp. 250–57 (‘miscarriage’ among the apostles).—Acc. to GBjörck, ConNeot 3, ’39, 3–8 ‘monster’, ‘horrible thing’.—M-M. EDNT. TW. Spicq.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 311). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: 1 Cor. 15:8 — Paul and the abortion
The "Middle Liddell" edition of the LSJ does states, "ἔκτρωμα, τό, a child untimely born, an abortion, N. T."
I do not know if and how it is used in other writings.
I do not know if and how it is used in other writings.
Matt Green
Re: 1 Cor. 15:8 — Paul and the abortion
This is what I question; although multiple sources parrot this, some of them flat out deny it, and no real life example is ever given.
Does anyone know of a source that actually uses the word for a living baby or a place where you can search Greek sources?
The interpretations all hinge on the semantic range. My latest theory is Paul considering himself an aborted Pharisee—that actually makes some sense.
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Re: 1 Cor. 15:8 — Paul and the abortion
According to the Dictionaries of Pape and Passow εκτρωμα = a premature birth (Aristotel). Pape adds to that: Hellenistic for εχαμβλωνα = Abortion.
Lampe, A Patristic Lexicon, 1961, gives: εκτρωμα = 1:Abortion (Job 3:16); 2: "as expression of humility ... so meant by S. Paul ICor 15:8"
Kittel explains the use of the word by Paul: Paul wasn't born (as an apostle) at the right time in spiritual sense, because he hasn't been a disciple of Jesus in the times of Jesus life. His spiritual birth as an apostle took place at a non-normal time, in a non-normal, non-organic and violent way, hence a kind of a miscarriage, abortion.
Jean
Lampe, A Patristic Lexicon, 1961, gives: εκτρωμα = 1:Abortion (Job 3:16); 2: "as expression of humility ... so meant by S. Paul ICor 15:8"
Kittel explains the use of the word by Paul: Paul wasn't born (as an apostle) at the right time in spiritual sense, because he hasn't been a disciple of Jesus in the times of Jesus life. His spiritual birth as an apostle took place at a non-normal time, in a non-normal, non-organic and violent way, hence a kind of a miscarriage, abortion.
Jean
Jean Putmans
Netherlands
gotischebibel.blogspot.com
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Re: 1 Cor. 15:8 — Paul and the abortion
Is there a way to find this actual reference?
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Re: 1 Cor. 15:8 — Paul and the abortion
I found a reference to this here: S. Ignatius. S. Polycarp: Revised Texts with Instructions, Notes, Dissertations, and Translations. The notes list a reference to Aristotle's use, in one case at any rate, and other instances also.
https://books.google.com/books?id=35gwA ... le&f=false
In On the Generation of Animals apparently.
Thx
D
Re: 1 Cor. 15:8 — Paul and the abortion
Wow, I really appreciate that a lot, thank you.Daniel Semler wrote: ↑September 3rd, 2021, 9:49 amI found a reference to this here: S. Ignatius. S. Polycarp: Revised Texts with Instructions, Notes, Dissertations, and Translations. The notes list a reference to Aristotle's use, in one case at any rate, and other instances also.
https://books.google.com/books?id=35gwA ... le&f=false
In On the Generation of Animals apparently.
Thx
D
I was able to look this up in the original work and as I suspected, it does not at all look like it is referring to any living or viable birth.
I'm strongly suspecting this was the usual use, and the only times it was used differently were in reference to Paul's use of it.