Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?

How do I work out the meaning of a Greek text? How can I best understand the forms and vocabulary in this particular text?
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John Kendall
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Re: Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?

Post by John Kendall »

Bill Ross wrote: September 4th, 2021, 6:09 pm Stroke each other all you want, but it won't compel me to follow suit. You are fantastic grammarians but at times lame when it come to interpretation.

Get over yourselves for once. You're nothing more than anyone else once you get past the grammar.
With respect, you really should pay attention to Stephen's point about referentiality. See for instance:

LXX Proverbs 8:25 πρὸ τοῦ ὄρη ἑδρασθῆναι, πρὸ δὲ πάντων βουνῶν γεννᾷ με.

Philo, Legum allegoriarum 3:4 πρὸ γὰρ παντὸς γενητοῦ ὁ θεός ἐστι (similarly De migratione Abrahami 1:183)

Philo, De posteritate Caini 1:89 ... οἱ πρὸ ἡμῶν καὶ παντὸς τοῦ γεώδους πρεσβύτεροι λόγοι καὶ θεῖοι·

Sibylline Oracle 8:439 ... πρὸ κτίσεως πάσης ... (Sibyl. 8:439 OPG)
Bill Ross
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Re: Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?

Post by Bill Ross »

Unless and until my reading is declared illegitimate, "that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!"
What I lack in youth I make up for in immaturity.
Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen »

Bill Ross wrote: September 4th, 2021, 7:13 pm Unless and until my reading is declared illegitimate, "that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!"
Your reading is illegitimate.
Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen »

Bill Ross wrote: September 4th, 2021, 6:43 pm
Stephen Carlson wrote: September 4th, 2021, 6:38 pm
Bill Ross wrote: September 4th, 2021, 6:09 pm But πρὸ used in conjunction with πάντων is well attested as referring to "above all":
These aren’t counter-examples to the explanation I provided.
Eh?
Stephen explained under which circumstances it can get the metaphorical interpretation "above all" (it doesn't actually change from "before" to "above", the former is just interpreted metaphorically and in English "above" is used). It can't get that interpretation under other circumstances (unless proven otherwise). Your statement "is well attested" as the basis for your opinion ignores the explanation.

If we can explain why and when A can mean X instead of Y, we must always use that explanation. It's not optional.
You are fantastic grammarians but at times lame when it come to interpretation.
Get over yourselves for once. You're nothing more than anyone else once you get past the grammar.
You seem to think there's plain grammar and then everything beyond it, and they can be neatly separated, and beyond the grammar anyone is fully qualified as long as it comes to interpreting language.

That's not true at all. First, grammar can't be fully detached from other aspects of language and communication. Second, even though it's practical to see some kind of division between grammar and some other things, you see the division in the wrong place. Third, people who are highly qualified in grammar are usually highly qualified in other related things, too. Your hybris reveals you're not qualified in any area.

Do you really want to use this forum only as a tool where you can get some grammatical advice and selectively ignore most of what people who give that advice say about grammar and Greek language? That's not fair.
Bill Ross
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Re: Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?

Post by Bill Ross »

I understand your view but disagree. Context is king. They asked for the sign and he tells them some things that are NOT the sign, just the beginnings. "Braxton-Hicks" kind of stuff. Then he tells them of the real sign of imminence.

There will be indications of the season (wars, rumors of wars) but that isn't the sign that it is time. More important than all that is the arrival of the time of being universally hated, which lasts until the end.

It is identical to Matthew's version:

[Matthew 24:7-9 NASB20] (7) "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. (8) "But all these things are [merely] the beginning of birth pains. (9) "Then they will hand you over to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

John said he KNEW that it was the last hour because of this sign:

[1 John 2:18-21 NASB20] (18) Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. (19) They went out from us, but they were not [really] of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but [they went out,] so that it would be evident that they all are not of us. (20) But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. (21) I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth.

I cannot be dissuaded. Sorry. If I'm wrong, I will have to be persuaded of it at another time. Right now, I can read it no other way.
What I lack in youth I make up for in immaturity.
Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen »

Bill Ross wrote: September 5th, 2021, 6:09 am I understand your view but disagree. Context is king.
No, you don't understand my (our) view and you ignore the grammar in its context. You think that "grammar" means form only, so that if πρό + παντός can sometimes mean "above all" it can grammatically mean it in all places. It's not true. Stephen already explained this: "that can only happen for a specific idiom when the πάντων or παντός object is non-referential". Referentiality is tightly coupled with grammar, you can't handle grammar of words unless you understand what they refer to and how. Semantics, pragmatics and grammar interact . You skip directly from very strict formal "grammar" to very wide "context" -- basically the whole text or "story" with cultural etc. background-- without considering anything between them. You will make erroneous interpretations that way.

Like for other people, I recommend reading some dose of general linguistics, especially semantics. You would probably understand better what Stephen says.

You were already shown why this is not "above all" here, but you just choose to ignore it. It's your loss, because you will hold untenable opinions and wrong interpretations without seeing it yourself.
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Bill Ross wrote: September 5th, 2021, 6:09 am I understand your view but disagree.
Feel free to disagree, you have every right to. But repeating the fact that you disagree, without engaging in the reasons people have given, is just making noise. Everyone else has a right to disagree with you, just as you have a right to disagree. Let's see what arguments people can give to persuade each other.

But I think you are disagreeing before you understand here. Could you start by repeating what others have said, or asking questions about the areas where you do not?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: September 5th, 2021, 8:54 am Like for other people, I recommend reading some dose of general linguistics, especially semantics. You would probably understand better what Stephen says.
Stephen, Eeli, what reading would you recommend here for someone who does not have this background? Is there something reasonably accessible?

I just moved this thread to the Beginner's Forum, but even many people who are not beginners have not read these things. What would you recommend we read?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Bill Ross
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Re: Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?

Post by Bill Ross »

I will take it under advisement. Thank you.
What I lack in youth I make up for in immaturity.
Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen »

Basically any introductory text. At least John I. Saeed: Semantics is good, so is Alan Cruse: Meaning in Language. I have read them (maybe older editions). Anything by Cambridge and Oxford are probably good, like Semantics: An Introduction to Meaning in Language; or Semantics (Oxford Introduction to Language Study Series). I don't know how one could go awfully wrong with any introductory book by a reputable publisher.

https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/231, Analyzing meaning: An introduction to semantics and pragmatics is a free pdf.

Please note that semantics may not directly address the issues at hand. But it's the one subdicipline of linguistics which is easy to start with and which can pay back immediately. It's fascinating and useful for anyone who is interested in language. It gives perspective for example to discussions about tense, aspect and voice or noun case system or reading lexicons.
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