The meaning of Hebrews 4:15b

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jgibson000
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The meaning of Hebrews 4:15b

Post by jgibson000 »

Would it be legitimate to construe Heb. 4:15b (πεπειρασμένον δὲ κατὰ πάντα καθ' ὁμοιότητα) as bearing the meaning " [one who] has been tested thoroughly in the ways over which we are being tested **now**"".?
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Re: The meaning of Hebrews 4:15b

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Jeffrey, I don't think that's a necessary inference from καθ' ὁμοιότητα, which bears a sense something like "just like us." I don't think present struggles are excluded, but it speaks to the broad range of human experience. Christ is like us, apart from sin.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
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jgibson000
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Re: The meaning of Hebrews 4:15b

Post by jgibson000 »

I hope that the following is acceptable here, especially in light of your claim that Heb. 4:15 speaks to the broad range of human experience. As I argue below, the assumption that it does is grounded in a misreading of the text.

Among the various Scriptural texts that have been (and still are) adduced in support of the doctrine of the absolute sinlessness of Jesus, surely the most prominent is Heb. 4:15./1/ For after all, does not the author of Hebrews openly declare there that during his earthly life Jesus was subjected to every allurement to sin that every human beings faces on a day to day basis by virtue of being human, but unlike other human beings, did not succumb to them?

Despite how often this question has been answered in the affirmative, there are, I think, good reasons to say that it is wrong to do so. For this understanding of what the text is asserting. ignores the following:

1. That πεπειρασμένον does not mean “[one who] has been enticed to sin” since the root of the participle, i.e., πειράζω, does not mean or connote “seduction”. It means “to test”, to “probe”, “to put someone or something to the proof” in order to determine something, and when applied to covenanted human beings, as the readers of Hebrews and the Epistle’s author were, “to test one’s faithfulness”. /2/ So πεπειρασμένον means “[one who] has been tested to see if he was faithful”.

2. That the “testings” that the author of Hebrews says his addressees are being subjected to are not things experienced by them because of their being, along with the rest of humanity, fleshy creatures who are all too easily overcome with carnal desires./3/ Rather they come to the addressees of Hebrews because they haven chosen to be members of a particular group whose social identity was culturally distinct from, and implicitly critical of, the identity and social values of those around them who rejected being members of their group and who thought that the members of the group to which the addressees of Hebrews belonged deserved to be shamed, humiliated, and even persecuted for their refusal to adopt the social identity and values they felt they stood in opposition to./4/

3. That the “testings” that are spoken of in Heb. 4:15 as belonging to the addressees of Hebrews are not ones that they have experienced throughout their lives, let alone “simply because [they] are men [sic]”./5/ They are specifically ones that they were undergoing at the time of the Epistle’s writing – which, in the light of Heb. 3:7-19, is evidently a time of social crisis that is forcing the recipients of Hebrews to decide whether their understanding of what it means to follow Jesus is or is not likely to bring them into the “rest” that they believed has been promised to them as their destiny.

4. That, as Heb. 3:1-4:11 proclaims, the “testings” that the author of Hebrews says his community are being subjected to are ones that will have the effect of showing whether or not they will act, with respect to obeying the ways of displaying faithfulness to God that they have been commissioned to follow, as the Wilderness generation did at Meribah and Massah and reject the path of obedience that they were called to observe as one that obliterate any chance of seeing God’s purposes in the world fulfilled.

Given these things, Hebrews 4:15 should not be taken as a declaration of the absolute sinlessness of Jesus. What it states is only that Jesus did not fail the particular “testings” over whether, in the face of pressures being placed upon them by those around them to abandon the ways they had been taught they were obliged to be obedient to in order to show faithfulness to God, they would publicly hold fast to their “confession”.


1. οὐ γὰρ ἔχομεν ἀρχιερέα μὴ δυνάμενον συνπαθ σαι τας ἀσθενείαις ἡμν, πεπειρασμένον δὲ κατὰ πάντα καθ’ ὁμοιότητα χωρὶς ἁμαρτίας.

2. On this, see J.H. Korn, _ΠΕΙΡΑΣΜΌΣ: Die Versuchung des Glaubigenin der greischischen Bible_ (Stuttgart: W. Kohlhammer, 1937) and B. Gerhardsson, _The Testing of God's Son (Matt 4:1-11 & Par)_ (Lund: C.W.L. Gleerup, 1966) 32-33, The only pre-second century CE exception to this seems to be found in James 1:13-15.

3. The statement at the beginning of Heb. 4:15 that the addressees of Hebrews were conscious of being “weak” and in need of help to remain faithful during “testing” does not support this view since what is referred to by ἀσθενείας is their awareness of how, given what their social circumstances are demanding of them, they might not have the strength necessary to “keep hold of their confession” of what they have been taught faithfulness to God entails.

4. This view, i.e., that the addresses saw themselves in an “us vs. them” situation in which what separated them from those who were not whom they regarded as “us” was different and opposing views of what was entailed in being faithful to God, is mounted and forcefully and persuasively defended by Matthew J. Marohl in his _ Faithfulness and the Purpose of Hebrews_ (Eugene, Oregon” Pickwick Publications, 2008) . I doubt, however, that his claim he makes on pp. 118-19 that the group that the author of the Epistle was comparing his addresses with was only “symbolic” in nature and not “real” can be maintained. It is difficult to think that a symbolic group could engage in the persecution of the addressees of the Epistle that its author noted his addresses experienced at this group’s hands.

5. O. Cullmann, _The Christology of the New Testament_ (Philadelphia; Westminster Press, 1963) 95.
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Re: The meaning of Hebrews 4:15b

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

jgibson000 wrote: May 24th, 2021, 2:03 pm I hope that the following is acceptable here, especially in light of your claim that Heb. 4:15 speaks to the broad range of human experience. As I argue below, the assumption that it does is grounded in a misreading of the text.
Well, it's clear that you had a major agenda in asking the question. The post is a little too theological for B-Greek taste, but I'll address the points more directly related to the actual Greek.

1. That πεπειρασμένον does not mean “[one who] has been enticed to sin” since the root of the participle, i.e., πειράζω, does not mean or connote “seduction”. It means “to test”, to “probe”, “to put someone or something to the proof” in order to determine something, and when applied to covenanted human beings, as the readers of Hebrews and the Epistle’s author were, “to test one’s faithfulness”. /2/ So πεπειρασμένον means “[one who] has been tested to see if he was faithful”.
This chain of logic is difficult to follow, and makes an assumption that itself needs to be proven. On πειράζω, of course it can mean "tempt" as in "tempt to sin":

④ to entice to improper behavior, tempt Gal 6:1; Js 1:13a (s. ἀπό 5eβ) and b, 14 (Aeschin. 1, 190 the gods do not lead people to sin). Above all the devil works in this way; hence he is directly called ὁ πειράζων the tempter Mt 4:3; 1 Th 3:5b.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 793). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.


Given these things, Hebrews 4:15 should not be taken as a declaration of the absolute sinlessness of Jesus. What it states is only that Jesus did not fail the particular “testings” over whether, in the face of pressures being placed upon them by those around them to abandon the ways they had been taught they were obliged to be obedient to in order to show faithfulness to God, they would publicly hold fast to their “confession”.
Again, you bring in a lot of detail to support your argument which has little to do with the Greek. I personally find these arguments unconvincing, but here is not the place to unpack it. I prefer Ellingsworth:

Christ’s sinlessness is presupposed in the tradition, not emphasized; for the thought, cf. Jn. 8:46; 1 Jn. 3:5; contrast Mt. 19:17 with parallels Mk. 10:18; Lk. 18:19 (Braun). The closest LXX parallel is 4 Macc. 5:9, τὸ μὴ ἀπολαύειν τῶν χωρὶς ὀνείδους ἡδέων, of which Heb. 11:25 may be a reminiscence. Χωρὶς ἁμαρτίας has a different meaning in → 9:28. In the present verse, the meaning “apart from the temptations which arise from sin” seems linguistically forced and foreign to the thought of Hebrews. The plain meaning is that Jesus, though tempted, remained untouched by sin. Sinlessness is attributed to the incorporeal Logos in Philo, Fuga 109f.; Spec. Leg. 1.293, and to the Messiah in Ps. Sol. 17:41; cf. Bergh van Eysinga; Vanhoye 1980.132–136.

Ellingworth, P. (1993). The Epistle to the Hebrews: a commentary on the Greek text (p. 269). Grand Rapids, MI; Carlisle: W.B. Eerdmans; Paternoster Press.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
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Re: The meaning of Hebrews 4:15b

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Barry Hofstetter wrote: May 24th, 2021, 3:59 pm This chain of logic is difficult to follow, and makes an assumption that itself needs to be proven. On πειράζω, of course it can mean "tempt" as in "tempt to sin":

④ to entice to improper behavior, tempt Gal 6:1; Js 1:13a (s. ἀπό 5eβ) and b, 14 (Aeschin. 1, 190 the gods do not lead people to sin). Above all the devil works in this way; hence he is directly called ὁ πειράζων the tempter Mt 4:3; 1 Th 3:5b.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 793). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
Jeffrey Gibson has published an entire monograph on the meaning of πειράζω, so quoting an out-of-date-to-him resource is unlikely to be persuasive or move this discussion forward at all.
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jgibson000
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Re: The meaning of Hebrews 4:15b

Post by jgibson000 »

I am not arguing that the absolute sinlessness of Jesus (though with respect to what, since "sin" is something that takes on meaning with a specific understanding of what is and is not considered to show disobedience and unfaithfulness to the God of Israel and what through Jesus he has called his people to be and to do) is not asserted in the NT. All I'm arguing is that it Heb. 4:15 cannot be used in support of the idea.

Jeffrey
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Re: The meaning of Hebrews 4:15b

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Stephen Carlson wrote: May 24th, 2021, 4:09 pm
Jeffrey Gibson has published an entire monograph on the meaning of πειράζω, so quoting an out-of-date-to-him resource is unlikely to be persuasive or move this discussion forward at all.
Of course BDAG is out of date. How could I have thought otherwise? Ironically, if he considers that out of date, he cites Korn, 1966 and Cullman, 1963...
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
jgibson000
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Re: The meaning of Hebrews 4:15b

Post by jgibson000 »

I cite Cullman as an example of a scholar who thinks that the πειρασμοί spoken of in Heb. 4:15 are enticements to evil that human beings experience because they are human beings and arise due to the fact that they have fleshy desires. I am NOT using him to support my claim.

And Korn's book was not published in 1966.

Jeffrey
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Re: The meaning of Hebrews 4:15b

Post by jgibson000 »

Also, I don't so much consider BAGD to be out of date when it comes to its entry on πειράζω as I consider it inaccurate. I spoke with Danker about this, but unfortunately it was after BDAG was published and he had no opportunity to take my work on the verb and its cognates into account. He did, however, take into consideration my work on the meaning of αναστενάζω.

Jeffrey
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Re: The meaning of Hebrews 4:15b

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

jgibson000 wrote: May 24th, 2021, 5:00 pm I cite Cullman as an example of a scholar who thinks that the πειρασμοί spoken of in Heb. 4:15 are enticements to evil that human beings experience because they are human beings and arise due to the fact that they have fleshy desires. I am NOT using him to support my claim.
Okay, thanks for the clarification.
And Korn's book was not published in 1966.

Jeffrey
You're right, my eye apparently skipped down to the next entry. It was actually published in 1937.
On this, see J.H. Korn, _ΠΕΙΡΑΣΜΌΣ: Die Versuchung des Glaubigenin der greischischen Bible_ (Stuttgart: W. Kohlhammer, 1937)
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
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