B-Greek: The Biblical Greek Forum

Hello,

I think the answer to this may be "learn English grammar" but I figured I would try to post here and see if anyone can help.

I am having problems figuring out when a word is a adjective or a noun. I just learned about substantive adjectives which further confuses things as far as figuring out if a word is a noun or an adjective.

For example, Ι was translating the below (keep in mind I have not learned verbs yet, Mounce does not get into them until Ch15 and I am on 9).

ἦν δὲ ὥρα τρίτη ἐσταύρωσαν αὐτόν

I was treating ὥρα like it was an adjective but when I looked at the flash card it said it was a noun.

I had the definition on the card remembered (hour, occasion, moment) but did not think it a noun. I think its because it had to do with time and I always remembered a noun was a "person, place, or thing" and an adjective was "a describing word". To me it seemed to be describing time.

Mounce defines an adjective as a word that modifies a noun, pronoun, or another adjective. This makes sense, but in my case, its a chicken and the egg problem, in that I need to recognize a noun before I can determine if its being modified.

Thank you for any input.

Good morning, LearningGreek (would you mind sharing an actual name for us?).

The definition of noun I learned was a word referring to person, place, thing or idea/abstract notion. Thus words such as "love" or "time" even though you can't touch or see them are still considered nouns.

An adjective modifies nouns, pronouns as Mounce correctly notes (in number, gender and case). It only modifies other adjectives when that adjective is a substantive, i.e., it is treated as a noun. We don't do this very often in English, but it is quite common in Greek (and Latin). However, you have a "cheat" in Greek in that substantive adjectives are commonly made substantive by using the definite article (only rarely without, so don't worry about that yet). Hence οἱ κακοί "the evil ones" (masculine), and so forth.

Nouns are listed in your vocabulary with the lexical form, the genitive, and the article for gender, e.g., ἄνθρωπος, ου, ὁ, man...

Adjectives are listed by their nominative singulars according to gender, so κακός, κακή, κακόν (masculine, feminine, neuter).

That's how you can distinguish the two as you learn them. So for time, ὥρᾱ -ας, ἡ and so a noun. Therefore in your sentence (which looks a bit odd to me, are you sure it's copied correctly?) what is the actual adjective modifying ὥρα?

Hint: another way of identifying a substantive adjective is seeing if there is a noun close to it in the same number, gender and case. If there is not, violá! A substantive.

Note: I was writing this as Barry was writing his response. I have now seen and read what Barry wrote. I agree with him - the guidelines he gives are good.

LearningGreek wrote: ↑October 1st, 2021, 5:51 pm I think the answer to this may be "learn English grammar" but I figured I would try to post here and see if anyone can help.

I am having problems figuring out when a word is a adjective or a noun. I just learned about substantive adjectives which further confuses things as far as figuring out if a word is a noun or an adjective.

The simple answers are simple, but it actually gets more complicated if you want to look at it in general. Here's one explanation for English.

For instance, in the sentence "Smoking is bad for you", is smoking a noun? No, but it seems to be if you follow some of the simplistic explanations you can find on the web. Your grasp of these things will grow as you learn Greek and think about language - and your questions show that you are doing that. It may or may not be worth the time to grapple with the article I pointed to above, depending on your level of interest. Learning linguistics and learning Greek are not the same thing.

The simplest answer at your stage is probably to trust the flashcard and the dictionary, but also to feel free to ask questions here. And really, many people will continue to just look it up in the dictionary when in doubt.

LearningGreek wrote: ↑October 1st, 2021, 5:51 pmFor example, Ι was translating the below (keep in mind I have not learned verbs yet, Mounce does not get into them until Ch15 and I am on 9).

ἦν δὲ ὥρα τρίτη ἐσταύρωσαν αὐτόν

I was treating ὥρα like it was an adjective but when I looked at the flash card it said it was a noun.

I had the definition on the card remembered (hour, occasion, moment) but did not think it a noun. I think its because it had to do with time and I always remembered a noun was a "person, place, or thing" and an adjective was "a describing word". To me it seemed to be describing time.

One of the problems we face when teaching or learning a language is that you really wish you understood everything else before you teach any given topic. Understanding this phrase in relation to the verbs is helpful. Also, is that quote missing the word καἰ?

ἦν δὲ ὥρα τρίτη καὶ ἐσταύρωσαν αὐτόν.

The first part would be a complete sentence by itself: ἦν δὲ ὥρα τρίτη. The first tricky part here is the verb ἦν, what is the subject of that verb? "It was". Oh. Nobody has taught you that yet. And I'm afraid δὲ is also kind of subtle here. So be aware of what you are doing when you learn a language - you are learning to understand one bit at a time, knowing that there is a lot you do not understand yet. Let's take that half of the sentence and use an English sentence frame for your translation. In the English, I will use a "-" to indicate that δὲ is not directly translated.

ἦν δὲ ὥρα τρίτη
- it was _______

Given that framework, can you fill in the rest? If we believe the flashcards and the dictionary, do you understand the role of ὥρα and τρίτη in that sentence? In the long run, what really helps the most is reading and understanding lots of Greek sentences. It's worth taking the time to chew on each one until you understand it. And as you build a foundation, reading more and more Greek, at a level you can understand, is really helpful.

The second tricky part is the relationship between the verbs ἦν and ἐσταύρωσαν. Which, again, you haven't gotten to yet. And that's harder if they left out the word καἰ. I think this sentence contains three things that strike me as hard for someone at your level, and the missing καἰ sure doesn't help. I'm not surprised you find this confusing. Again, it's easier to translate just the second half:

καὶ ἐσταύρωσαν αὐτόν.

Also, getting exposed to something interactive and in Greek is really helpful. Something like Aleph with Angela might help you get a feel for the language more rapidly.

LearningGreek wrote: ↑October 1st, 2021, 5:51 pm Mounce defines an adjective as a word that modifies a noun, pronoun, or another adjective. This makes sense, but in my case, its a chicken and the egg problem, in that I need to recognize a noun before I can determine if its being modified.

Let's look at just the noun phrase: ὥρα τρίτη. If it's fuzzy for you, then yes, just look it up. But here's a hint: does this tell you which hour it is, or does it tell you which third it is?

to the above I would add that discussions of grammar terms across languages will inevitably lead to abstractions that may surprise you. Grammar terms are developed to describe functional word-shape categories in one particular language and then they are modified and adapted to fit other languages where the categories occupy a slightly different abstract "space" within that language. For example . . .:

Above it was stated that "smoking is bad for you" might incorrectly lead to calling "smoking" a noun. That was actually mistaken advice.
Yes, "smoking," in fact, functions as a noun in that sentence. And, yes, "smoking" is a noun that is derived from a verb.
So grammarians rush to the rescue and throw a new name on the phenomenon, a "gerund."
So how about a "smoking gun"? Isn't that the same word "smoking"? Yes and No. In the phrase "smoking gun" the word "smoking" functions as an adjective and a new name is brought out for it: an "adjectival participle." Eventually, you may learn how to recognize little differences in function and form and you may want to develop your own grammar term to specify that distinction. That is what linguists do all the time.

Meanwhile, I would recommend leaning heavily toward a flexible common sense.
Go for the "meaning" of the phrase, recognizing that the meaning is ultimately defined by Greek, not by English, and that the grammar terms are fitted to the construction after the fact according to a particular theoretical framework.

Remember, children learn languages without the grammar labels. No mother rocks her baby, points to herself, and says,
" 'mama,' feminine singular animate count noun, under-differentiated, marginally acceptable, presentative sentence."
or points to her baby,
" 'baby,' common gender, singular, animate count noun . . ."

RandallButh wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2021, 12:33 pm Above it was stated that "smoking is bad for you" might incorrectly lead to calling "smoking" a noun. That was actually mistaken advice.
Yes, "smoking," in fact, functions as a noun in that sentence. And, yes, "smoking" is a noun that is derived from a verb.
So grammarians rush to the rescue and throw a new name on the phenomenon, a "gerund."
So how about a "smoking gun"? Isn't that the same word "smoking"? Yes and No. In the phrase "smoking gun" the word "smoking" functions as an adjective and a new name is brought out for it: an "adjectival participle." Eventually, you may learn how to recognize little differences in function and form and you may want to develop your own grammar term to specify that distinction. That is what linguists do all the time.

I was trying to avoid that complexity, and I oversimplified in a way that was misleading. Which is ... what we often do when teaching beginners.

I like your summary, it's clear without being overwhelming. I think "functions as a noun" is an important concept here. Here's one more thing: the classification you find in your dictionary is going to affect the way you think of these things. Oxford actually has a definition for "smoking" as a noun, then says what it means when used as an adjective:

noun
noun: smoking

the action or habit of inhaling and exhaling the smoke of tobacco by sucking on the end of a lit cigarette, cigar, pipe, etc.
"the effect of smoking on health"

adjective
adjective: smoking; adjective: smokin'

1. emitting smoke or visible vapor.
"they huddled round his smoking fire in the winter damp"
2. informal
lively and exciting.
"this band is really smokin'"

The definition of "smoke" includes both a definition when used as a noun and a definition when used as a verb:

verb
verb: smoke; 3rd person present: smokes; past tense: smoked; past participle: smoked; gerund or present participle: smoking

1. emit smoke or visible vapor.
"heat the oil until it just smokes"

Similar:
smolder
emit smoke
emit fumes
reek
2. suck on the end of a lit cigarette, cigar, pipe, etc. so as to inhale and exhale the smoke produced by the burning tobacco into the mouth.
"she was sitting at the kitchen table smoking"

If your dictionary says that, then these choices become more obvious. I'm guessing LG's flashcards are less expansive. For good reason, too, how much do you want to overwhelm a beginner at this stage?

RandallButh wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2021, 12:33 pmMeanwhile, I would recommend leaning heavily toward a flexible common sense.
Go for the "meaning" of the phrase, recognizing that the meaning is ultimately defined by Greek, not by English, and that the grammar terms are fitted to the construction after the fact according to a particular theoretical framework.

Remember, children learn languages without the grammar labels. No mother rocks her baby, points to herself, and says,
" 'mama,' feminine singular animate count noun, under-differentiated, marginally acceptable, presentative sentence."
or points to her baby,
" 'baby,' common gender, singular, animate count noun . . ."

Yes. Yes. Yes.

After all, LG knows how to speak English quite well, even though LG does not know how to use linguistic meta-language to describe it. You can get lost in this stuff. And it's not how you learn how to actually use the Greek language.

Thank you all for your help and replies. Also that analogy about a mom talking to her baby was both hilarious and insightful.

και is not in the sentence I quoted. Its from Mounce's workbook and he makes these sentences up to pair up with what you have learned so far. This is why he does not give scripture just yet. Thus it may seem weird.

I have taken notes from the post and am thankful for the replies.

LearningGreek wrote: ↑October 1st, 2021, 5:51 pm Hello,

I think the answer to this may be "learn English grammar" but I figured I would try to post here and see if anyone can help.

I am having problems figuring out when a word is a adjective or a noun. I just learned about substantive adjectives which further confuses things as far as figuring out if a word is a noun or an adjective.

- - - snip snip - - - -
Mounce defines an adjective as a word that modifies a noun, pronoun, or another adjective. This makes sense, but in my case, its a chicken and the egg problem, in that I need to recognize a noun before I can determine if its being modified.

Thank you for any input.

You will also find that Greek can use some adjectives as if they were nouns (this is the substantive use - they are not special adjectives, but just adjectives used in a special way). I'll keep to English words so as to keep it simple, but for both Greek and English we can speak of "the poor", "the rich", "the elders" as a kind of abbreviation for "the poor men" etc - and Greek can do it for the singular also, eg. "the poor (man)" - the words 'poor', 'rich', 'elder' are still adjectives but they are being used in a special sense, to stand in for a noun; the grammatical gender of the adjective will tell us if the missing noun is singular or plural, and masculine (guy), feminine (gal), or neuter (thing).