John 21 ἀγαπάω / φιλέω

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Stephen Hughes
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Re: John 21 ἀγαπάω / φιλέω

Post by Stephen Hughes »

David Lee wrote:Perhaps something worth a second look would be what's in focus when the author writes, "λέγει αὐτῷ τὸ τρίτον". If it means "he said a third time", then it lends itself to the view that all three of Jesus' questions were the same, whereas if it means "he said the third time", then it might be highlighting the fact that the third question was different than the previous two.
If someone were to go shopping τὸ τρίτον (either a or the) it wouldn't mean they bought the same things all over again.

Of course there is some repetition, but the structure of the phrase makes it clear that he is not saying the same thing, because it actually tells us / quotes what is being said, and they are not the same.

Perhaps it is a subtle difference, but I take τὸ τρίτον here in John 21 as a narrative device, not as a repetition of the same event exactly.

In Mark 14, ἔρχεται καὶ εὑρίσκει (vs.37) and asked why they were sleeping, ὑποστρέψας εὗρεν αὐτοὺς πάλιν (vs.40 Byz 2005 text) / (πάλιν ἐλθὼν εὗρεν αὐτοὺς NAUBS text) and just looked at them (they couldn't even respond to his coming), and ἔρχεται τὸ τρίτον , καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς (vs.41) and told them to have their rest. The coming was presumably the same, but what happened each time was different. In Luke 23, there is a narrative in three steps constructed around adverbs none (vs.14), πάλιν (vs.20), τρίτον (vs.22).

We find another example of this in Xenophon, Hellenica 3.3.4,
Τὰ Ἑλληνικὰ τοῦ Ξενοφώντος 3.3.4 wrote:Οὔπω δ᾽ ἐνιαυτὸν ὄντος ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ Ἀγησιλάου, θύοντος αὐτοῦ τῶν τεταγμένων τινὰ θυσιῶν ὑπὲρ τῆς πόλεως εἶπεν ὁ μάντις ὅτι ἐπιβουλήν τινα τῶν δεινοτάτων φαίνοιεν οἱ θεοί. ἐπεὶ δὲ πάλιν ἔθυεν, ἔτι δεινότερα ἔφη τὰ ἱερὰ φαίνεσθαι. τὸ τρίτον δὲ θύοντος, εἶπεν· Ὦ Ἀγησίλαε, ὥσπερ εἰ ἐν αὐτοῖς εἴημεν τοῖς πολεμίοις, οὕτω μοι σημαίνεται. ἐκ δὲ τούτου θύοντες καὶ τοῖς ἀποτροπαίοις καὶ τοῖς σωτῆρσι, καὶ μόλις καλλιερήσαντες, ἐπαύσαντο.
Where sacrificing forms the basis of the narrative.

In contrast to that, I think that in 2 Corinthians 12:14 (and 13:1) the τρίτον is used in the sequence πρῶτον, δεύτερον, τρίτον - the first time he came, the second time he came and the (then forthcoming) third time he came, and he intends to say the same thing.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Tony Pope
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Re: John 21 ἀγαπάω / φιλέω

Post by Tony Pope »

David Lee wrote:So you're suggesting that Peter's use of φιλῶ is a stronger claim than ἀγαπῶ?
In a sense, yes. But I don't go for the emotional distinction that Trench seems to make. From Peter's behaviour as noted earlier in this gospel it's clear that he in particular is portrayed as claiming to be close to Jesus. He is the spokesman insisting that the twelve will remain loyal to him (6.68), he will not have Jesus washing his feet (13.6), he insists he will lay down his life for Jesus (13.37), he defends him with his weapon (18.10). If you admit evidence from other gospels, Matt 26.33 can be added (εἰ πάντες σκανδαλισθήσονται ἐν σοί, ἐγὼ οὐδέποτε σκανδαλισθήσομαι.)
David Lee wrote:
Tony Pope wrote: If φιλεῖν were interchangeable with ἀγαπᾶν, Peter's reply would not have answered the question, whereas his ναί suggests he has.
I don't think the premise here is as clear cut. If you look at the second question and answer, Jesus simply asks, "ἀγαπᾷς με;", and Peter responds with a Ναί here as well. Here then, Peter's reply of φιλῶ σε answers the question of ἀγαπᾷς με, even without the qualifier πλεῖον τούτων.
Fair point. Perhaps another option would be to say that φιλῶ includes ἀγαπῶ but goes further.
David Lee wrote:Perhaps something worth a second look would be what's in focus when the author writes, "λέγει αὐτῷ τὸ τρίτον". If it means "he said a third time", then it lends itself to the view that all three of Jesus' questions were the same, whereas if it means "he said the third time", then it might be highlighting the fact that the third question was different than the previous two.
Stephen has answered on this point better than I could have done.
Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: John 21 ἀγαπάω / φιλέω

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Tony Pope wrote:
David Lee wrote:Perhaps something worth a second look would be what's in focus when the author writes, "λέγει αὐτῷ τὸ τρίτον". If it means "he said a third time", then it lends itself to the view that all three of Jesus' questions were the same, whereas if it means "he said the third time", then it might be highlighting the fact that the third question was different than the previous two.
Stephen has answered on this point better than I could have done.
The weakness in what I wrote is the lack of a clear example of "firstly", "secondly" and "thirdly" used together in a text. Here are a few different examples.

I came across this construction in the Gospel of Nicodemus today. It is a very simple speech construction all said together. As an embedded quote, the basic structure is the familiar λέγειν ὅτι, but in this case is broken up with the ordinal adverbs.
Gospel of Nicodemus Part I, Chapter 2, section 2 wrote:Εἶπον οἱ Ἰοθδαῖοι πρὸς αὐτὸν Τί ἔχομεν λέγειν περὶ σοῦ; πρῶτον, ὅτι ἔξ ἁμαρτίας εἶ γεγεννημένος˙ δεύτερον, ὅτι διὰ σὲ, ὅτε ἐγεννήθης, ἐφόνεθσαν τὰ βρέφη˙ τρίτον, ὅτι ὁ πατήρ σου καὶ ἡ μήτηρ σοθ ἔφθγον εἰς τὴν Αἴγυπτον, διὸ οὐδεν εἶχον θάρσος εἰς τὸν λαόν.
Similar to that, there is a list of points made in:
Diogène Laërce, section 33 wrote:τριῶν τούτων ἕνεκα χάριν ἔχειν τῇ Τύχῃ· πρῶτον μὲν ὅτι ἄνθρωπος ἐγενόμην καὶ οὐ θηρίον, εἶτα ὅτι ἀνὴρ καὶ οὐ γυνή, τρίτον ὅτι Ἕλλην καὶ οὐ βάρβαρος.
There are other variants of this phrase, it seems.

There is also an actual list in 1 Corinthians 12:28, (rather than a series of points that are being made):
1 Corinthians 12:28 wrote:Καὶ οὓς μὲν ἔθετο ὁ θεὸς ἐν τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ πρῶτον ἀποστόλους, δεύτερον προφήτας, τρίτον διδασκάλους , ἔπειτα δυνάμεις , εἶτα χαρίσματα ἰαμάτων, ἀντιλήψεις, κυβερνήσεις, γένη γλωσσῶν.
In any case, the structure marks the passage as more eloquent and better constructed, perhaps just (rhetorically) separating the things said, rather than necessarily ranking them.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Andrew Chapman
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Re: John 21 ἀγαπάω / φιλέω

Post by Andrew Chapman »

Benjamin Warfield, in his Terminology of Love in the New Testament, part 2, PTR 1918, 155, after reviewing a few cases in the LXX in which φιλέω and ἀγαπάω occur together, concludes:

'In all the combinations of ἀγαπᾶν and φιλεῖν, the higher role is assigned to ἀγαπᾶν.'

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3myvz ... sp=sharing

First part:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3myvz ... sp=sharing

With regard to John 21, Warfield concludes:
Ἀγαπᾶν and φιλεῖν emerge, therefore, as respectively the love of complete devotion and the love (as Meyer phrases it) "of personal heart emotion"; the love of surrendering obedience and the love (as Westcott phrases it) "of personal attachment," "the feeling of natural love." [Warfield, part 2, 196]
Andrew
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