Romans 1:20

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Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Robert S. Daniel
Posts: 35
Joined: May 27th, 2020, 6:20 pm

Re: Romans 1:20

Post by Robert S. Daniel »

Daniel Semler wrote: December 1st, 2020, 11:09 am
The general practice on BGreek is to discuss the Greek rather than translations.
I know, I've been told something like this before. But I have a question for everybody, not just you. The Greek consists of more than just syntax. So is there any way we can talk about the semantics of Greek expressions without violating policy? What I'm wondering about in this thread isn't so much how to translate Romans 1:20 as how to construct meaning from the words and the grammar that connects them together. Is there a way to do that without talking about possibilities for translation? Maybe by conducting the discussion in Greek (I wish that my Greek was that good!) ?
Daniel Semler
Posts: 244
Joined: February 18th, 2019, 7:45 pm

Re: Romans 1:20

Post by Daniel Semler »

Robert S. Daniel wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 5:50 am
Daniel Semler wrote: December 1st, 2020, 11:09 am
The general practice on BGreek is to discuss the Greek rather than translations.
I know, I've been told something like this before. But I have a question for everybody, not just you. The Greek consists of more than just syntax. So is there any way we can talk about the semantics of Greek expressions without violating policy? What I'm wondering about in this thread isn't so much how to translate Romans 1:20 as how to construct meaning from the words and the grammar that connects them together. Is there a way to do that without talking about possibilities for translation? Maybe by conducting the discussion in Greek (I wish that my Greek was that good!) ?
If you look at a few posts like this one there is often request about how the various portions of Greek are functioning. And that's what you asked about the participle. That basically gets at that issue. I have sometimes resorted to constructions like "if I represent what I am thinking in this English serialization of the thought" or some other tortuous construction. The point is that if you understand what it says you can probably translate it. That is not to diminish the difficulties in translation itself, but you cannot translate properly before understanding I don't think. That is perhaps one of the issues with grammar-translation based instruction. The point is to get to a native understanding of the language which is very hard given a lack of native speakers and a few other obstacles. But this is why in my earlier posts in this thread I refrained from translating the words and used the Greek.
Robert S. Daniel wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 5:50 am Maybe by conducting the discussion in Greek (I wish that my Greek was that good!) ?
This is my goal. I have just completed a BLC first semester in Greek. That was done speaking as much as possible in Greek, including asking questions about the Greek and answering them Ἑλληνιστί where possible. οὐ δύναμαι ἐρωτᾶν ἤ ἀποκρίνεσθαι πάντα Ἑλληνιστὶ ἀλλὰ πειρῶμαι. At least in class I have. I plan to use more written Greek here as my writing improves.

It all takes time of course, and plenty is discussed here about Greek in English but the point then is discuss it from the perspective of how the Greek works not how another language might present the same idea as is in the Greek.

Thx
D
Robert S. Daniel
Posts: 35
Joined: May 27th, 2020, 6:20 pm

Re: Romans 1:20

Post by Robert S. Daniel »

Daniel Semler wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 11:39 am
This is my goal. I have just completed a BLC first semester in Greek. That was done speaking as much as possible in Greek, including asking questions about the Greek and answering them Ἑλληνιστί where possible. οὐ δύναμαι ἐρωτᾶν ἤ ἀποκρίνεσθαι πάντα Ἑλληνιστὶ ἀλλὰ πειρῶμαι. At least in class I have. I plan to use more written Greek here as my writing improves.
Cool! I love the Buth stuff. Some of his associates were doing online classes for a while, which I participated in. Somebody would read a verse or two from one of the gospels, and the teacher would have a bunch of questions about the passage. The questions were posed in Koine and we were expected to reply in Koine. The questions and answers stayed pretty close to the text most of the time, but we did get into some somewhat meaty issues sometimes. We managed to stay in Greek probably at least 80% - 90% of the time. I wish they were still doing that. I also attended a two-week fluency workshop in Fresno a number of years ago, but they haven't done another one since. I guess I wore them out.

I've also worked through the Living Koine Greek materials, so I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Buthian. If you know of any opportunities to do this kind of thing online, please let me know. They do list some online courses on the BLC website, but I'm not sure they would be useful to me, having already done the Living Koine Greek materials pretty intensively. Do you have any experience that might say otherwise?
Rob
Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 2018
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Romans 1:20

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Daniel Semler wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 11:39 am
This is my goal. I have just completed a BLC first semester in Greek. That was done speaking as much as possible in Greek, including asking questions about the Greek and answering them Ἑλληνιστί where possible. οὐ δύναμαι ἐρωτᾶν ἤ ἀποκρίνεσθαι πάντα Ἑλληνιστὶ ἀλλὰ πειρῶμαι. At least in class I have. I plan to use more written Greek here as my writing improves.
Just as a point of order, the main discussion language of the Forum is English, but we have a subforum "Writing Greek" designed for just such a purpose. It's been pretty inactive there, but I would love to see it used more.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Daniel Semler
Posts: 244
Joined: February 18th, 2019, 7:45 pm

Re: Romans 1:20

Post by Daniel Semler »

Robert S. Daniel wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 12:51 pm Cool! I love the Buth stuff. Some of his associates were doing online classes for a while, which I participated in. Somebody would read a verse or two from one of the gospels, and the teacher would have a bunch of questions about the passage. The questions were posed in Koine and we were expected to reply in Koine. The questions and answers stayed pretty close to the text most of the time, but we did get into some somewhat meaty issues sometimes. We managed to stay in Greek probably at least 80% - 90% of the time. I wish they were still doing that. I also attended a two-week fluency workshop in Fresno a number of years ago, but they haven't done another one since. I guess I wore them out.

I've also worked through the Living Koine Greek materials, so I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Buthian. If you know of any opportunities to do this kind of thing online, please let me know. They do list some online courses on the BLC website, but I'm not sure they would be useful to me, having already done the Living Koine Greek materials pretty intensively. Do you have any experience that might say otherwise?
Rob
I've used the now older Living Koine Greek materials. I liked them a lot. BLC is in the process of developing a new curriculum based on the Colloquia of the Hermeneumata. I have just completed the first semester 101A-C of that new curriculum. It is different material and different stories but the basic idea is the same - stay in the language as much as possible. Work in all four modes - reading, writing, speaking and listening. So despite having used the older materials I found it fun and rewarding to go through these classes. I have never had formal education in a class setting in Greek. So for me it was great to work with other people. It was also really good to be able to practice the reconstructed Roman pronunciation with someone who was able to correct my errors.

A reading group Q&A style thing sounds fun. The hardest thing for me remains extemporaneous composition in Greek. And classes like these help a lot with that.

Thx
D
Stephen Carlson
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Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
Location: Melbourne
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Re: Romans 1:20

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Robert S. Daniel wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 5:50 am
Daniel Semler wrote: December 1st, 2020, 11:09 am
The general practice on BGreek is to discuss the Greek rather than translations.
I know, I've been told something like this before. But I have a question for everybody, not just you. The Greek consists of more than just syntax. So is there any way we can talk about the semantics of Greek expressions without violating policy? What I'm wondering about in this thread isn't so much how to translate Romans 1:20 as how to construct meaning from the words and the grammar that connects them together. Is there a way to do that without talking about possibilities for translation? Maybe by conducting the discussion in Greek (I wish that my Greek was that good!) ?
It's really question of means and ends. On this forum, a translation could be a means to the end (understanding the Greek text), but not the end itself. It's a question of focus. It's not about evaluating translations, but meanings.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Robert S. Daniel
Posts: 35
Joined: May 27th, 2020, 6:20 pm

Re: Romans 1:20

Post by Robert S. Daniel »

Barry Hofstetter wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 1:33 pm
Just as a point of order, the main discussion language of the Forum is English, but we have a subforum "Writing Greek" designed for just such a purpose. It's been pretty inactive there, but I would love to see it used more.
I just posted a short story there. Have at! Maybe some enterprising person will want to add diacritical marks. It would take me much longer to do that than to write the story, so if I have to do that it will be a disincentive to writing more.
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