Is this a legitimate translation of Hebrews 1:8?

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Bill Ross
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Re: Is this a legitimate translation of Hebrews 1:8?

Post by Bill Ross »

In my original question I cite this source:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B8%C ... #Adjective
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Jason Hare
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Re: Is this a legitimate translation of Hebrews 1:8?

Post by Jason Hare »

Bill Ross wrote: December 5th, 2020, 11:42 am In my original question I cite this source:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B8%C ... #Adjective
This time I intentionally edited the post to correct the link. ;)

Yeah, I checked that link just after I submitted the post. Notice that it says that it is used adjectivally only in the comparative θεώτερος "more divine" or "quite divine." The word θεός is not used in the nominative in this way as an adjective (nor would we expect it to be). Well, apparently in Epic, according to LSJ.
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Bill Ross
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Re: Is this a legitimate translation of Hebrews 1:8?

Post by Bill Ross »

Well that's a confusing entry, then:
Adjective
θεός • (theós)

divine (used only in comparative: θεώτερος (theṓteros))
If that is the case (and I suppose you are right) then my original question is moot.

Interestingly, the JPS has this for the Hebrew:
JPS Psalms 45:
7Your throne, O judge, [will exist] forever and ever; the scepter of equity is the scepter of your kingdom.
Your throne, O judge: Your throne, O prince and judge, shall exist forever and ever, as the matter that is stated (Exod. 7:1): “I have made you a judge אלהים) (נתתיך over Pharaoh.” And why? Because “a scepter of equity is the scepter of your kingdom,” that your judgments are true, and you are fit to govern.
8You loved righteousness and you hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, anointed you with oil of joy from among your peers.
anointed you…
with oil of joy: Every expression of greatness is depicted by the anointment of oil, as is the custom of the kings.
However, I think that the article would rule out anything but the one true God in the Koine of Hebrews (not that Hebrews often lines up with the Hebrew).

Related: https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/ ... 3102#33102

Please be sure to read my comment, though.
What I lack in youth I make up for in immaturity.
Bill Ross
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Re: Is this a legitimate translation of Hebrews 1:8?

Post by Bill Ross »

Okay, so I found this in Liddell:
θεός , ὁ, Boeot. θιός , Lacon. σιός (v. infr.), Cypr., Cret. θιός Inscr.Cypr.135.27 H., Leg.Gort.1.1, Dor. also θεύς Call.Cer.58; acc. θεῦν v.l. ib.130; voc. (only late) θεός, also...

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ntry=qeo/s
What is "late" in this context? Is Koine "late"?

See also:
...III. as Adj. in Comp. θεώτερος, divine, θύραι θ., opp. καταιβαταὶ ἀνθρώποισιν, Od.13.111; χορὸς θ. Call.Ap. 93, cf.Dian.249, D.P.257. (Derived by Hdt.2.52 fr. τίθημι (κόσμῳ θέντες τὰ πρήγματα), by Pl.Cra.397d fr. θεῖν. Etym. dub.) [In Ep. (twice in Hom.) and Trag. (E.Ba.47, 1347, al., not in Com.), as monosyll. by synizesis, “θεοί” Il.1.18, Thgn.142; “θεῶν” h.Cer.55, 259; “θεοῖς” Thgn.171; “θεοῖσιν” Od.14.251; “θεούς” h.Cer.325: even in nom. θεός before a vowel, E.Or.399 (cf. Pors. ad loc.), HF347; in Pi.P. 1.56 apptly. a short monosyll.]...

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ntry=qeo/s
What I lack in youth I make up for in immaturity.
Bill Ross
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Re: Is this a legitimate translation of Hebrews 1:8?

Post by Bill Ross »

And while we're at it...
...2. metaph., of abstract things, “τὸ δ᾽ εὐτυχεῖν τόδ᾽ ἐν βροτοῖς θεός τε καὶ θεοῦ πλέον” A.Ch.60; “ἡ φρόνησις ἁγαθὴ θ. μέγας” S.Fr.922; “θ. γὰρ καὶ τὸ γιγνώσκειν φίλους” E.Hel.<*>60; ὁ πλοῦτος τοῖς σοφοῖς θ. Id.Cyc.316; φθόνος κάκιστος θ. Hippothoon 2.
3. as title of rulers, θεῶν ἀδελφῶν (sc. Ptolemy Il and Arsinoe), Herod.1.30, etc.; “Πτολεμαῖος ὑπάρχων θεὸς ἐκ θεοῦ καὶ θεᾶς” OGI90.10(Rosetta, ii B.C.); “Ἀντίοχος ὅτῳ θεὸς ἐπώνυμον γίγνεται” App.Syr.65; θεὸς ἐκ θεοῦ, of Augustus, OGI655.2 (Egypt, 24 B.C.); “θ. ἡμῶν καὶ δεσπότης” IPE4.71 (Cherson., ii A.D.).
b. = Lat. Divus, Mon.Anc.Gr.10.4, Str.4.1.1, etc.; οἱ ἐν θεοῖς αὐτοκράτορες,= divi Imperatores, IG12(1).786 (Rhodes).
c. generally of the dead, “καὶ ζῶντός σου καὶ εἰς θεοὺς ἀπελθόντος” PPetr.2p.45 (iii B.C.); θεοῖς χθονίοις,= Lat. Dis Manibus, IG14.30,al.
4. one set in authority, judge, τὸ κριτήριον τοῦ θ., ἐνώπιον τοῦ θ., LXXEx.21.6, 22.8; θεοὺς οὐ κακολογήσεις ib.22.28(27)...

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ntry=qeo/s
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Re: Is this a legitimate translation of Hebrews 1:8?

Post by Jason Hare »

Bill Ross wrote: December 5th, 2020, 12:48 pm Okay, so I found this in Liddell:
θεός , ὁ, Boeot. θιός , Lacon. σιός (v. infr.), Cypr., Cret. θιός Inscr.Cypr.135.27 H., Leg.Gort.1.1, Dor. also θεύς Call.Cer.58; acc. θεῦν v.l. ib.130; voc. (only late) θεός, also...

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ntry=qeo/s
What is "late" in this context? Is Koine "late"?
Yes, Koiné is post-classical. It's late Greek.
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ed krentz
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Re: Is this a legitimate translation of Hebrews 1:8?

Post by ed krentz »

Definition is always difficult. Lucian of Samosata ! Dip Chrysostom, and Plutarch are all late first or second century authors, as is Strabo. Musinius Rufus is the first century teacher of Epictetus.

All are contemporary With or later than the NT writings. But all are regarded as part of the classics in classical Ph D programs.
the NT authors vary widely in terms of vocabulary
And rhetorical sophistication, as Eduard Norden, Prof of classics in Berlin University recognized in his Major work Die Antike Kunstprosa.

The NT is part of Ancient Greek language, while Patristic authors like the Epistle to Diognetus, Origen and the three Cappadocian fathers all write language that is linguistically sophisticated.

Classic Greek is far more than fifth and fourth century BC authors. It has a long history.
Edgar Krentz
Prof. Emeritus of NT
Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
Bill Ross
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Re: Is this a legitimate translation of Hebrews 1:8?

Post by Bill Ross »

So after all this helpful feedback and reviewing various resources I'm inclined now to go with the way the JPS version, Rashi and Liddell usage I.4 offer, and that is "Your throne, O judge,...".
JPS Psalms 45:
7Your throne, O judge, [will exist] forever and ever; the scepter of equity is the scepter of your kingdom.
Your throne, O judge: Your throne, O prince and judge, shall exist forever and ever, as the matter that is stated (Exod. 7:1): “I have made you a judge אלהים) (נתתיך over Pharaoh.” And why? Because “a scepter of equity is the scepter of your kingdom,” that your judgments are true, and you are fit to govern.
8You loved righteousness and you hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, anointed you with oil of joy from among your peers.
anointed you…
with oil of joy: Every expression of greatness is depicted by the anointment of oil, as is the custom of the kings.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ntry=qeo/s

Thanks for all the help.

And congrats on getting the site back up! You were missed!
What I lack in youth I make up for in immaturity.
Bill Ross
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Re: Is this a legitimate translation of Hebrews 1:8?

Post by Bill Ross »

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Re: Is this a legitimate translation of Hebrews 1:8?

Post by Jason Hare »

Since you linked to this from whatever stack exchange, I will say that I just checked both JPS 1917 and JPS 1985, and neither reads like you've stated here. Neither is the CJB (as I found through your links) worded that way. That wording is not in the "Complete Jewish Bible," as often referred to, which is a Messianic translation. Rather, it is from Chabad's own English translation on their website. This should be made clear in your presentation. People shouldn't need to hunt around to find what you're presenting.

I'd also be careful with suggesting that reading the JPS 1917 (especially) is akin to getting at the meaning of the Hebrew text. That translation is widely acknowledged as problematic.

CJB (Messianic): Your throne, God, will last forever and ever; you rule your kingdom with a scepter of equity.

JPS (1917): Thy throne given of God is for ever and ever; a sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

JPS (1985): Your divine throne is everlasting; your royal scepter is a scepter of equity.

Complete Jewish Bible (from Chabad): Your throne, O judge, [will exist] forever and ever; the scepter of equity is the scepter of your kingdom.

The Chabad translation is not the JPS. Nor should you label it as the CJB, since that already exists. It is a translation that has never been printed and is generally referred to as the "Complete Tanach by Chabad."
Jason A. Hare
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