Aorist active subjunctives in Ephesians 4:13-15

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Bill Ross
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Aorist active subjunctives in Ephesians 4:13-15

Post by Bill Ross »

Related: https://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vi ... 0aeb069a82
[Ephesians 4:13-15 MGNT] (13) μέχρι καταντήσωμεν οἱ πάντες εἰς τὴν ἑνότητα τῆς πίστεως καὶ τῆς ἐπιγνώσεως τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ εἰς ἄνδρα τέλειον εἰς μέτρον ἡλικίας τοῦ πληρώματος τοῦ Χριστοῦ (14) ἵνα μηκέτι ὦμεν νήπιοι κλυδωνιζόμενοι καὶ περιφερόμενοι παντὶ ἀνέμῳ τῆς διδασκαλίας ἐν τῇ κυβείᾳ τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἐν πανουργίᾳ πρὸς τὴν μεθοδείαν τῆς πλάνης (15) ἀληθεύοντες δὲ ἐν ἀγάπῃ αὐξήσωμεν εἰς αὐτὸν τὰ πάντα ὅς ἐστιν ἡ κεφαλή Χριστός
NASB20 has:
[Ephesians 4:13-15 NASB20] (13) until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. (14) As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of people, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; (15) but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all [aspects] into Him who is the head, [that is,] Christ,
Are these all "Future More Probable" third class condition?
What I lack in youth I make up for in immaturity.
Matthew Longhorn
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Re: Aorist active subjunctives in Ephesians 4:13-15

Post by Matthew Longhorn »

I can’t see any “if” statement here so they can’t be 3rd class conditionals

For verse 13 - Μεχρι seems to take a subjunctive as seen in BDAG, which would make sense as a possibility and not a statement that we definitely will reach that unity
as a conjunction until (B-D-F §383, 2; Rob. 975) μ. καταντήσωμεν Eph 4:13 (cp. Hdt. 4, 119, 4; SIG 976, 71 μέχρι ποιήσωσιν; PCairPreis 48, 7 μέχρι τὸ πλοιαρίδιον εὑρῶμεν; TestSol 9:8 P; SibOr 3, 570. On the omission of ἄν s. Mlt. 168f; Rydbeck, 144-53). μ. οὗ w. subjunctive (Herodas 2, 43; 8, 8 [Cunningham reads μέχρις εὖ in both]; POxy 293, 7 [27 A.D.] μέχρι οὗ ἀποστείλης Da 11:36 Theod.; EpArist 298) Mk 13:30 (μ. ὅτου v.l.); Gal 4:19. μ. ὅτε (ὅτου v.l.) Hv 4, 1, 9; GJs 10:2 (s. B-D-F §455, 3).
Ινα takes a subjunctive as the mood of the verb in the clause it introduces, hence the verse 14 example

Verse 15 I would read as a hortatory subjunctive - exhorting us to action

Of course, I could be wrong :)
Bill Ross
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Re: Aorist active subjunctives in Ephesians 4:13-15

Post by Bill Ross »

Okay, so basically the NASB20 did a good job here, it seems.

Thanks.
What I lack in youth I make up for in immaturity.
Bill Ross
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Re: Aorist active subjunctives in Ephesians 4:13-15

Post by Bill Ross »

Or actually, wouldn't "let us do this until we all attain..."
and "let us know longer be children..."
and "let us grow up in all aspects"?
What I lack in youth I make up for in immaturity.
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Aorist active subjunctives in Ephesians 4:13-15

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Bill Ross wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 1:57 pm Okay, so basically the NASB20 did a good job here, it seems.
Please quote the Greek and ask specific questions. For instance, "what does μέχρι mean in verse 13?" Or if you see a specific instance that might be a particular kind of conditional, quote just that and ask how it should be interpreted.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Aorist active subjunctives in Ephesians 4:13-15

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Bill Ross wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 2:46 pm Or actually, wouldn't "let us do this until we all attain..."
and "let us know longer be children..."
and "let us grow up in all aspects"?
For which Greek phrases? Why? What questions did you have in rendering them?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Bill Ross
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Re: Aorist active subjunctives in Ephesians 4:13-15

Post by Bill Ross »

Please see the bolded words in the Ephesians passage (in Greek) in my original question. Thanks.
What I lack in youth I make up for in immaturity.
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Aorist active subjunctives in Ephesians 4:13-15

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Bill Ross wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 4:02 pm Please see the bolded words in the Ephesians passage (in Greek) in my original question. Thanks.
Well, I owe you an apology, I hadn't noticed that. I will go back and make them a little more prominent in case someone else misses it too.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Bill Ross
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Re: Aorist active subjunctives in Ephesians 4:13-15

Post by Bill Ross »

Thanks. To be honest, it crossed my mind that an underline might be more effective but I was lazy and didn't add it.
What I lack in youth I make up for in immaturity.
timothy_p_mcmahon
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Re: Aorist active subjunctives in Ephesians 4:13-15

Post by timothy_p_mcmahon »

The cohortative occurs in independent clauses.
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