John 8:58

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Jason Hare
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Jason Hare »

Jonathan Robie wrote: August 10th, 2021, 4:34 pm I don't think they were stoning him because they thought he was old.
Oh my. I didn't expect that line, and it broke me up into laughter! :lol:
Jonathan Robie wrote: August 10th, 2021, 4:34 pm And I don't see how εἰμί can refer only to past time. Why wouldn't he use a more appropriate tense for that? Clearly, Jesus is referring to himself as he is standing right there in front of them and using a present tense verb to do so.
Or, for what it's worth, the author of the Gospel of John wants us to believe that Jesus said that. It certainly should pull the reader's attention and make them do a double take. It's not something that a normal person would say.
Jonathan Robie wrote: August 10th, 2021, 4:34 pm
  • John 15:27 καὶ ὑμεῖς δὲ μαρτυρεῖτε, ὅτι ἀπ᾽ ἀρχῆς μετ᾽ ἐμοῦ ἐστε.
  • John 14:9 λέγει αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Τοσούτῳ χρόνῳ μεθ᾽ ὑμῶν εἰμι καὶ οὐκ ἔγνωκάς με, Φίλιππε; ὁ ἑωρακὼς ἐμὲ ἑώρακεν τὸν πατέρα· πῶς σὺ λέγεις, Δεῖξον ἡμῖν τὸν πατέρα;
In fact, I think most people on this thread probably agree that John 8:58 also has a sense that refers both to the time before Abraham and the current time, implying continuous time in between. There's more than one possible way to translate that, but translation is not our problem here on B-Greek.

But this is not the same thing as referring only to past time. Just as a dependent temporal clause is not the same thing as an adverbial complement. Sometimes you seem to be taking more than one contradictory position at the same time.
Precisely. My only problem with the syntax is the lack of a "since" connection. We have "before," but no "since" (ἀφ᾿ ἧς or ἀφ᾿ οὗ, for example). If it had said something like ἀφ᾿ ἧς οὐκέτι [ἐγένετο / ἐγεγένητο] ὁ Ἀβραάμ, ἐγὼ εἰμί "since when Abraham had not yet been born, I am" (or something better than this, of course), I would have no problem with it—something that contained ἀπό to pull the time from the past into the present, inclusive. Lacking that, the verse is problematic for me. It doesn't surprise me that people continue to argue about what it means, even though it seems so simple on the surface of it.
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Jonathan Robie »

While we are looking at possible ways to understand ἐγώ εἰμι, it's worth pointing to these two uses earlier in the same chapter:

John 8:24 εἶπον οὖν ὑμῖν ὅτι ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν· ἐὰν γὰρ μὴ πιστεύσητε ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι, ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν.
John 8:28 εἶπεν οὖν ὁ Ἰησοῦς· Ὅταν ὑψώσητε τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, τότε γνώσεσθε ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι, καὶ ἀπ’ ἐμαυτοῦ ποιῶ οὐδέν, ἀλλὰ καθὼς ἐδίδαξέν με ὁ πατὴρ ταῦτα λαλῶ.

Especially since both are part of a passage that leads up to the one we are talking about here:
21 Εἶπεν οὖν πάλιν αὐτοῖς· Ἐγὼ ὑπάγω καὶ ζητήσετέ με, καὶ ἐν τῇ ἁμαρτίᾳ ὑμῶν ἀποθανεῖσθε· ὅπου ἐγὼ ὑπάγω ὑμεῖς οὐ δύνασθε ἐλθεῖν. 22 ἔλεγον οὖν οἱ Ἰουδαῖοι· Μήτι ἀποκτενεῖ ἑαυτὸν ὅτι λέγει· Ὅπου ἐγὼ ὑπάγω ὑμεῖς οὐ δύνασθε ἐλθεῖν; 23 καὶ ἔλεγεν αὐτοῖς· Ὑμεῖς ἐκ τῶν κάτω ἐστέ, ἐγὼ ἐκ τῶν ἄνω εἰμί· ὑμεῖς ἐκ τούτου τοῦ κόσμου ἐστέ, ἐγὼ οὐκ εἰμὶ ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου. 24 εἶπον οὖν ὑμῖν ὅτι ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν· ἐὰν γὰρ μὴ πιστεύσητε ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι, ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν. 25 ἔλεγον οὖν αὐτῷ· Σὺ τίς εἶ; εἶπεν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς· Τὴν ἀρχὴν ὅ τι καὶ λαλῶ ὑμῖν; 26 πολλὰ ἔχω περὶ ὑμῶν λαλεῖν καὶ κρίνειν· ἀλλ’ ὁ πέμψας με ἀληθής ἐστιν, κἀγὼ ἃ ἤκουσα παρ’ αὐτοῦ ταῦτα λαλῶ εἰς τὸν κόσμον. 27 οὐκ ἔγνωσαν ὅτι τὸν πατέρα αὐτοῖς ἔλεγεν. 28 εἶπεν οὖν ὁ Ἰησοῦς· Ὅταν ὑψώσητε τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, τότε γνώσεσθε ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι, καὶ ἀπ’ ἐμαυτοῦ ποιῶ οὐδέν, ἀλλὰ καθὼς ἐδίδαξέν με ὁ πατὴρ ταῦτα λαλῶ. 29 καὶ ὁ πέμψας με μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἐστιν· οὐκ ἀφῆκέν με μόνον, ὅτι ἐγὼ τὰ ἀρεστὰ αὐτῷ ποιῶ πάντοτε. 30 ταῦτα αὐτοῦ λαλοῦντος πολλοὶ ἐπίστευσαν εἰς αὐτόν.
And for an example that does not refer to Jesus, here's one from the next chapter:

John 9:9 ἄλλοι ἔλεγον ὅτι Οὗτός ἐστιν· ἄλλοι ἔλεγον· Οὐχί, ἀλλὰ ὅμοιος αὐτῷ ἐστιν. ἐκεῖνος ἔλεγεν ὅτι Ἐγώ εἰμι.

How likely is it that ἐγώ εἰμι is used in the same sense in these three verses and in John 8:58?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Jason Hare wrote: August 10th, 2021, 3:30 am It seems to me that ἐγὼ εἰμί in such a statement is trying to draw out eternity. Think about it... if you applied it to any other time, what assumption would you make?

"Before the creation of the world, I am."
"More than a million years ago, I am."
"At the end of all things, I am."

It's clear that this is supposed to bring out a concept that wouldn't be contained in "I existed before Michael was born."
Agreed. And based on this thread, I think we are looking at a "present for perfect" or "perfective perfect", and that this refers to a state of being that began before Abraham and continues into the present - "ongoing at the moment of speaking".
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Daniel Semler
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Daniel Semler »

Jonathan Robie wrote: August 11th, 2021, 2:19 pm
Jason Hare wrote: August 10th, 2021, 3:30 am It seems to me that ἐγὼ εἰμί in such a statement is trying to draw out eternity. Think about it... if you applied it to any other time, what assumption would you make?

"Before the creation of the world, I am."
"More than a million years ago, I am."
"At the end of all things, I am."

It's clear that this is supposed to bring out a concept that wouldn't be contained in "I existed before Michael was born."
Agreed. And based on this thread, I think we are looking at a "present for perfect" or "perfective perfect", and that this refers to a state of being that began before Abraham and continues into the present - "ongoing at the moment of speaking".
Why in this passage would we think that the action of the verb is ongoing at the time of speaking ? Is it just because he is speaking and thus clearly exists at that time, or is it because the construction itself indicates it ? The former would be contextual rather than grammatical.

My reading of the ἐγὼ εἰμί and its adjunct is that it speaks about what was before Abraham was born. I am not so sure grammatically it says anything, in and of itself, about time after him, though of course by implication of the one saying it may. Was it to be said of Jesus by a third person that Πριν Αβρααμ γενεσθαι εστιν would we assume that he was still in existence at the time of speaking ?

Thx
D
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Daniel Semler wrote: August 12th, 2021, 12:22 pm
Jonathan Robie wrote: August 11th, 2021, 2:19 pm Agreed. And based on this thread, I think we are looking at a "present for perfect" or "perfective perfect", and that this refers to a state of being that began before Abraham and continues into the present - "ongoing at the moment of speaking".
Why in this passage would we think that the action of the verb is ongoing at the time of speaking ? Is it just because he is speaking and thus clearly exists at that time, or is it because the construction itself indicates it ? The former would be contextual rather than grammatical.
Well, I'm not entirely sure, but I find these three things persuasive:

1. If he meant to refer to past time that is not ongoing, I suspect he would have said Πρὸ τοῦ Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι, ἐγὼ ἤμην, as Chrysostom suggests.
2. There's nothing to suggest a time that Jesus stopped existing in between.
3. The Cambridge definition of the default meaning of the present tense covers this nicely, and I guess I have that stuck in my brain right now.
Present Indicative Basic Uses

33.14 The present indicative refers to actions that occur at the moment of speaking. By virtue of its imperfective aspect (incomplete), it is used by default to refer to actions which are ongoing at the moment of speaking:
  • (10) τί κάτησθε, ὦ Πέρσαι, ἐνθαῦτα; (Hdt. 3.151.2)
    Why are you sitting there, Persians?
    (11) παραβοηθεῖθ᾽, ὡς ὑπ᾽ ἀνδρῶν τύπτομαι ξυνωμοτῶν. (Ar. Eq. 257)
    Help me: I’m being roughed up by conspirators!
Note 1: The ongoing action referred to by the present indicative may have begun long before the moment of speaking, and an expression of duration is sometimes added:
  • (12) εἰ διδακτόν ἐστιν ἀρετὴ πάλαι σκοποῦμεν. (Pl. Men. 93b)
    We have long been investigating whether virtue is something that can be taught.
Observe that Engl. here prefers a present perfect (‘have been investigating’).
But again, I am not certain that I am right.
Daniel Semler wrote: August 12th, 2021, 12:22 pmMy reading of the ἐγὼ εἰμί and its adjunct is that it speaks about what was before Abraham was born. I am not so sure grammatically it says anything, in and of itself, about time after him, though of course by implication of the one saying it may. Was it to be said of Jesus by a third person that Πριν Αβρααμ γενεσθαι εστιν would we assume that he was still in existence at the time of speaking ?
The other thread is a better place to hash this out. I don't know if we would see Πριν Αβρααμ γενεσθαι εστιν to refer to a third person or not, I would like to see such sentences. But yes, most or all of the examples we have discussed in the other thread seem to involve ongoing action or states that started in the past. Of course, that may be because they are selected as examples that illustrate this particular usage, the use of the present tense alone may not indicate that.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Scott Lawson
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Scott Lawson »

Jonathan Robie wrote: August 11th, 2021, 1:15 pm While we are looking at possible ways to understand ἐγώ εἰμι, it's worth pointing to these two uses earlier in the same chapter:

John 8:24 εἶπον οὖν ὑμῖν ὅτι ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν· ἐὰν γὰρ μὴ πιστεύσητε ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι, ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν.
John 8:28 εἶπεν οὖν ὁ Ἰησοῦς· Ὅταν ὑψώσητε τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, τότε γνώσεσθε ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι, καὶ ἀπ’ ἐμαυτοῦ ποιῶ οὐδέν, ἀλλὰ καθὼς ἐδίδαξέν με ὁ πατὴρ ταῦτα λαλῶ.

Especially since both are part of a passage that leads up to the one we are talking about here:
21 Εἶπεν οὖν πάλιν αὐτοῖς· Ἐγὼ ὑπάγω καὶ ζητήσετέ με, καὶ ἐν τῇ ἁμαρτίᾳ ὑμῶν ἀποθανεῖσθε· ὅπου ἐγὼ ὑπάγω ὑμεῖς οὐ δύνασθε ἐλθεῖν. 22 ἔλεγον οὖν οἱ Ἰουδαῖοι· Μήτι ἀποκτενεῖ ἑαυτὸν ὅτι λέγει· Ὅπου ἐγὼ ὑπάγω ὑμεῖς οὐ δύνασθε ἐλθεῖν; 23 καὶ ἔλεγεν αὐτοῖς· Ὑμεῖς ἐκ τῶν κάτω ἐστέ, ἐγὼ ἐκ τῶν ἄνω εἰμί· ὑμεῖς ἐκ τούτου τοῦ κόσμου ἐστέ, ἐγὼ οὐκ εἰμὶ ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου. 24 εἶπον οὖν ὑμῖν ὅτι ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν· ἐὰν γὰρ μὴ πιστεύσητε ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι, ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν. 25 ἔλεγον οὖν αὐτῷ· Σὺ τίς εἶ; εἶπεν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς· Τὴν ἀρχὴν ὅ τι καὶ λαλῶ ὑμῖν; 26 πολλὰ ἔχω περὶ ὑμῶν λαλεῖν καὶ κρίνειν· ἀλλ’ ὁ πέμψας με ἀληθής ἐστιν, κἀγὼ ἃ ἤκουσα παρ’ αὐτοῦ ταῦτα λαλῶ εἰς τὸν κόσμον. 27 οὐκ ἔγνωσαν ὅτι τὸν πατέρα αὐτοῖς ἔλεγεν. 28 εἶπεν οὖν ὁ Ἰησοῦς· Ὅταν ὑψώσητε τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, τότε γνώσεσθε ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι, καὶ ἀπ’ ἐμαυτοῦ ποιῶ οὐδέν, ἀλλὰ καθὼς ἐδίδαξέν με ὁ πατὴρ ταῦτα λαλῶ. 29 καὶ ὁ πέμψας με μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἐστιν· οὐκ ἀφῆκέν με μόνον, ὅτι ἐγὼ τὰ ἀρεστὰ αὐτῷ ποιῶ πάντοτε. 30 ταῦτα αὐτοῦ λαλοῦντος πολλοὶ ἐπίστευσαν εἰς αὐτόν.
And for an example that does not refer to Jesus, here's one from the next chapter:

John 9:9 ἄλλοι ἔλεγον ὅτι Οὗτός ἐστιν· ἄλλοι ἔλεγον· Οὐχί, ἀλλὰ ὅμοιος αὐτῷ ἐστιν. ἐκεῖνος ἔλεγεν ὅτι Ἐγώ εἰμι.

How likely is it that ἐγώ εἰμι is used in the same sense in these three verses and in John 8:58?

Jonathan John 8:24,28 and 9:9 are all examples of predicateless constructions of self identification. If John 8:58 is used in the same sense we are right back to Jesus saying I am he (Christ, God, Son of Man…). And my question has been whether or not the πριν clause can modify a statement of identity or existence when the clause is past referring.
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Scott Lawson wrote: August 13th, 2021, 12:55 pm Jonathan John 8:24,28 and 9:9 are all examples of predicateless constructions of self identification. If John 8:58 is used in the same sense we are right back to Jesus saying I am he (Christ, God, Son of Man…).
I like to avoid inventing authoritative-sounding categories, but yes, when there are four statements along these lines this close to each other, that is often a good indication of what this particular writer might mean by such a construction.
Scott Lawson wrote: August 13th, 2021, 12:55 pmAnd my question has been whether or not the πριν clause can modify a statement of identity or existence when the clause is past referring.
Given the meaning of the other three instances you mention, this seems the most likely meaning to me. And we have found at least a few good examples where this clearly happens in other contexts:
Jonathan Robie wrote: July 31st, 2021, 4:50 pm But here's one well-known example:
Psalm 89:2 wrote:πρὸ τοῦ ὄρη γενηθῆναι καὶ πλασθῆναι τὴν γῆν καὶ τὴν οἰκουμένην καὶ ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος ἕως τοῦ αἰῶνος σὺ εἶ.

Which is syntactically very similar to:
John 8:58 wrote:εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.
But I am also very curious about the Septuagint translation here, the Hebrew explicitly mentions God, the Greek does not:
Psa 90:2 wrote:בְּטֶ֤רֶם ׀ הָ֘רִ֤ים יֻלָּ֗דוּ וַתְּח֣וֹלֵֽל אֶ֣רֶץ וְתֵבֵ֑ל וּֽמֵעוֹלָ֥ם עַד־ע֝וֹלָ֗ם אַתָּ֥ה אֵֽל׃
To me, the syntax of these two examples is similar enough that I would expect the usage to be the same in both places. And it does make me wonder if Jesus may have been calling that verse to mind, it's a very distinctive usage.
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Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen »

Although I don't anymore use as black and white language to deny the possibility of ειμι being a copula with ellipsis as I did in the first pages of this thread, I'm still not convinced by what Jonathan says. The possibility is interesting anyway. It's annoying that we don't have enough background material to understand ellipsis. I don't know if anyone has analyzed ellipsis linguistically, at least in Ancient or Koine Greek. Old Bullinger spends many pages for it but in the end is extremely superficial. Ellipsis is very wide and diverse phenomenon. We can't just say that because ellipsis is common in Koine this can be one, too. Not even the other εγω ειμι statements aren't enough without further analysis.

I would be especially interested in functional-cognitive linguistics, discourse analysis, information structure and constituent order applied to ellipsis. My instinct says that there's cognitively no suitable filler for an ellipsis available here. Topic-focus development with questioning Jesus' age has buried possible contextual alternatives or made them too ambiguous (if they ever would have been viable), and encyclopedic knowledge doesn't work here.
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: August 13th, 2021, 3:02 pm My instinct says that there's cognitively no suitable filler for an ellipsis available here. Topic-focus development with questioning Jesus' age has buried possible contextual alternatives or made them too ambiguous (if they ever would have been viable), and encyclopedic knowledge doesn't work here.
Again, I'm not sure I'm right. But there are two reasons I'm uncomfortable with what you say above. First, Jesus often answers a different question than what the Pharisees actually asked, taking it in whatever direction he wants to. He is not all that constrained by the exact form of the question.

Second, I am generally uncomfortable with the use of topic-focus development as a form of proof, as opposed to an approach to describe the development of the text as understood by the interpreter. Some of that comes from the difficulty I have had writing queries that use discourse features to in ways that prove this kind of thing, though I may simply not have tried hard enough.

But I don't think there is only one reasonable way to interpret this verse. Yours seems quite plausible, I just don't believe this is the kind of thing that can be objectively proven one way or another.
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Bill Ross
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Bill Ross »

I'm of the opinion that it is an allusion to this Psalm (in the Greek OT):
[Psalm 90:2 LXX] (2) πρὸ τοῦ ὄρη γενηθῆναι καὶ πλασθῆναι τὴν γῆν καὶ τὴν οἰκουμένην καὶ ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος ἕως τοῦ αἰῶνος σὺ εἶ
And that the meaning is a parallel with the second part of the previous verse:
[Psalm 90:1 LXX] (1) προσευχὴ τοῦ Μωυσῆ ἀνθρώπου τοῦ θεοῦ κύριε καταφυγὴ ἐγενήθης ἡμῗν ἐν γενεᾷ καὶ γενεᾷ
What I lack in youth I make up for in immaturity.
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