ἵνα μὴ ἃ ἐὰν θέλητε ταῦτα ποιῆτε (Gal 5:17b)

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Gregory Hartzler-Miller
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ἵνα μὴ ἃ ἐὰν θέλητε ταῦτα ποιῆτε (Gal 5:17b)

Post by Gregory Hartzler-Miller »

Gal 4:21
Λέγετέ μοι, οἱ ὑπὸ νόμον θέλοντες εἶναι, τὸν νόμον οὐκ ἀκούετε;

Gal 5:16-18
Λέγω δέ, Πνεύματι περιπατεῖτε καὶ ἐπιθυμίαν σαρκὸς οὐ μὴ τελέσητε.

ἡ γὰρ σὰρξ ἐπιθυμεῖ κατὰ τοῦ Πνεύματος, τὸ δὲ Πνεῦμα κατὰ τῆς σαρκός, ταῦτα γὰρ ἀλλήλοις ἀντίκειται, ἵνα μὴ ἃ ἐὰν θέλητε ταῦτα ποιῆτε.

εἰ δὲ Πνεύματι ἄγεσθε, οὐκ ἐστὲ ὑπὸ νόμον.

Re: ἵνα μὴ ἃ ἐὰν θέλητε ταῦτα ποιῆτε

Commentators are puzzled over what it is Paul presumes his audience might "want to do". But I have not seen any commentary suggest that maybe he is referring to their shared "want" to be "under the law" mentioned in the previous chapter. That might seem like a long time ago in the flow of the letter, but the very next verse picks up the theme of being "under the law."

The well-studied Pauline parallel, Rom 7, does not seem to me to contradict this reading of ἵνα μὴ ἃ ἐὰν θέλητε ταῦτα ποιῆτε.

Cf. Rom 7:14-18 and 8:2-4
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I admit that the law is good. 17In that case, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out...

2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

-------------

It seems to me that what the Galatians might very well be presumed to "want" is to be "under the law" and to do "works of the law"; but since even the spiritual law, "weakened by the flesh" is powerless, they will not be able to do what they "want". In Paul's view, it is better to walk according to the Spirit, and not even try to be "under the law". The whole purpose of trying to be under the law, but then failing (due to the battle of flesh and spirit) is to learn to become receptive to what God did in sending the Son "in the likeness of sinful flesh".

What am I missing?
Gregory Hartzler-Miller
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Re: ἵνα μὴ ἃ ἐὰν θέλητε ταῦτα ποιῆτε (Gal 5:17b)

Post by Gregory Hartzler-Miller »

Gal 4:9f
...how is it that you are turning back to those weak and worthless στοιχεῖα? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!

...οἱ ὑπὸ νόμον θέλοντες εἶναι...

...ἡ γὰρ σὰρξ ἐπιθυμεῖ κατὰ τοῦ Πνεύματος,
τὸ δὲ Πνεῦμα κατὰ τῆς σαρκός,
ταῦτα γὰρ ἀλλήλοις ἀντίκειται,
ἵνα μὴ ἃ ἐὰν θέλητε ταῦτα ποιῆτε.
i.e. ...οὐκ ἐστὲ ὑπὸ νόμον.

Re: ἵνα μὴ ἃ ἐὰν θέλητε ταῦτα ποιῆτε.

My exegetical thesis on the meaning of "the things you want" at the end of 5:17 is situated in the selections above. Paul was addressing those who "wanted" go back to being "under the law". I think they were God-fearing Gentiles who had, before they met Paul, practiced some superficial parts of Jewish tradition such as the "days and months...". In Paul's view, getting circumcised was like observing "days and months"--going backward to superficial, elementary things. He wanted them to see that their deep experience of Spirit (vs flesh) served a purpose-- "the things you want" are no longer an option, i.e. they should (could) not go back to being "under the law".
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Re: ἵνα μὴ ἃ ἐὰν θέλητε ταῦτα ποιῆτε (Gal 5:17b)

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Are you asking a question about the Greek text here - e.g. language, structure of the passage, discourse? I'm having a hard time figuring out what the B-Greek question is.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Gregory Hartzler-Miller
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Re: ἵνα μὴ ἃ ἐὰν θέλητε ταῦτα ποιῆτε (Gal 5:17b)

Post by Gregory Hartzler-Miller »

Jonathan Robie wrote: January 11th, 2022, 10:36 am Are you asking a question about the Greek text here - e.g. language, structure of the passage, discourse? I'm having a hard time figuring out what the B-Greek question is.
From where I sit, my stated exegetical thesis looks pretty excellent. I don't have "questions" about it because it looks so contextually well situated to me. I have thought about this particular set of flesh phrases (Gal 5:16-18) for probably hundreds of hours (as part of a larger study of the flesh phrases of Galatians which I've been doing for over 10,000 hours); I have reviewed a number of commentaries; and I have pondered the issues in my heart; but this interpretation only came into view recently. It is new to me. I am surprised I have not seen it before. Since I have not found any published commentator who has made this argument, I suspect I might be mistaken in my confidence.

So I stated it as a thesis on this forum so that others might 1) see what I see, 2)inform me if and when others have written the same, 3) point out ways I might refine it, and 4) point out flaws of any kind (in terms of "language, structure of the passage, discourse" etc.) in my reading of the Greek.
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Re: ἵνα μὴ ἃ ἐὰν θέλητε ταῦτα ποιῆτε (Gal 5:17b)

Post by Stephen Carlson »

I don’t understand your thesis, but if it involves identifying the wanting to do something with wanting to be something, I have my doubts.
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Gregory Hartzler-Miller
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Re: ἵνα μὴ ἃ ἐὰν θέλητε ταῦτα ποιῆτε (Gal 5:17b)

Post by Gregory Hartzler-Miller »

Stephen Carlson wrote: January 11th, 2022, 6:43 pm I don’t understand your thesis, but if it involves identifying the wanting to do something with wanting to be something, I have my doubts.
In this reading, wanting to be enslaved again = wanting to do such "works of the law" as "observing days..."

νῦν δὲ γνόντες Θεόν, μᾶλλον δὲ γνωσθέντες ὑπὸ Θεοῦ, πῶς ἐπιστρέφετε πάλιν ἐπὶ τὰ ἀσθενῆ καὶ πτωχὰ στοιχεῖα, οἷς πάλιν ἄνωθεν δουλεῦσαι θέλετε; ἡμέρας παρατηρεῖσθε...

Yes, I'm seeing reason for doubts too. I think the idea would be that if you consciously follow the Spirit (against the desires of the flesh, which you are also conscious of) you will not be able to go back to a sense of being satisfied under the law, doing work of the law again.
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Re: ἵνα μὴ ἃ ἐὰν θέλητε ταῦτα ποιῆτε (Gal 5:17b)

Post by Gregory Hartzler-Miller »

πῶς ἐπιστρέφετε πάλιν ἐπὶ τὰ ἀσθενῆ καὶ πτωχὰ στοιχεῖα, οἷς πάλιν ἄνωθεν δουλεῦσαι θέλετε; ἡμέρας παρατηρεῖσθε...

Observing days is a sign of wanting to serve the weak and poor στοιχεῖα (i.e."the Law being powerless in that it was weak through the flesh" Rom:8:3).

Refined thesis: To want to serve the stoichia is want to be under the law, and to do works of the law--be it the full law observed by the circumcised Jews, or a limited set of laws suited to God-fearing but uncircumcised Gentiles (the implied situation of the audience of Galatians prior to hearing the Gospel and receiving the Spirit).

Doubtful?
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Re: ἵνα μὴ ἃ ἐὰν θέλητε ταῦτα ποιῆτε (Gal 5:17b)

Post by Jason Hare »

Gregory Hartzler-Miller wrote: January 12th, 2022, 10:59 am πῶς ἐπιστρέφετε πάλιν ἐπὶ τὰ ἀσθενῆ καὶ πτωχὰ στοιχεῖα, οἷς πάλιν ἄνωθεν δουλεῦσαι θέλετε; ἡμέρας παρατηρεῖσθε...

Observing days is a sign of wanting to serve the weak and poor στοιχεῖα (i.e."the Law being powerless in that it was weak through the flesh" Rom:8:3).

Refined thesis: To want to serve the stoichia is want to be under the law, and to do works of the law--be it the full law observed by the circumcised Jews, or a limited set of laws suited to God-fearing but uncircumcised Gentiles (the implied situation of the audience of Galatians prior to hearing the Gospel and receiving the Spirit).

Doubtful?
I think it is the shock of the text that Paul identifies the performance of Torah law with the stoicheia (στοιχεῖα), which was originally how he identified pagan cult rituals. These are people who were enslaved to stoicheia as idolators, and he warns them that if they take the performance of the Torah’s laws upon them (observing holidays, living by rules of not touching or handling certain things, restrictions on diet), they would be enslaving themselves again to the same principles that had held them as slaves before—they will have been abandoning the concept of grace. How could Torah observance, since the Torah was given by God on Mount Sinai, be the same as idolatry? Don’t forget two things: (1) Paul said in his writings that the Torah was given by a mediator (not directly by God himself), implying either Moses or by the angel who met Moses in the bush and later on the mountain; and, (2) Judaism and Torah observance were interpreted into his allegory of the two covenants as the slave woman. This was intentional and plays into how he felt about those who insisted on Torah observance as part of their experience of the new faith.
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Gregory Hartzler-Miller
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Re: ἵνα μὴ ἃ ἐὰν θέλητε ταῦτα ποιῆτε (Gal 5:17b)

Post by Gregory Hartzler-Miller »

Jason Hare wrote: January 12th, 2022, 11:59 am I think it is the shock of the text that Paul identifies the performance of Torah law with the stoicheia (στοιχεῖα), which was originally how he identified pagan cult rituals. These are people who were enslaved to stoicheia as idolators, and he warns them that if they take the performance of the Torah’s laws upon them (observing holidays, living by rules of not touching or handling certain things, restrictions on diet), they would be enslaving themselves again to the same principles that had held them as slaves before—they will have been abandoning the concept of grace. How could Torah observance, since the Torah was given by God on Mount Sinai, be the same as idolatry? Don’t forget two things: (1) Paul said in his writings that the Torah was given by a mediator (not directly by God himself), implying either Moses or by the angel who met Moses in the bush and later on the mountain; and, (2) Judaism and Torah observance were interpreted into his allegory of the two covenants as the slave woman. This was intentional and plays into how he felt about those who insisted on Torah observance as part of their experience of the new faith.
I think I understand this interpretation so far, but I'm not clear where it leads vis-a-vis the exegesis of the passage in question: ἵνα μὴ ἃ ἐὰν θέλητε ταῦτα ποιῆτε (Gal 5:17b). What is your interpretation of these words?
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Re: ἵνα μὴ ἃ ἐὰν θέλητε ταῦτα ποιῆτε (Gal 5:17b)

Post by Jason Hare »

Gregory Hartzler-Miller wrote: January 12th, 2022, 8:41 pm I think I understand this interpretation so far, but I'm not clear where it leads vis-a-vis the exegesis of the passage in question: ἵνα μὴ ἃ ἐὰν θέλητε ταῦτα ποιῆτε (Gal 5:17b). What is your interpretation of these words?
ἡ γὰρ σὰρξ ἐπιθυμεῖ κατὰ τοῦ πνεύματος, τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα κατὰ τῆς σαρκός, ταῦτα γὰρ ἀλλήλοις ἀντίκειται” (Galatians 5:17a) places the flesh and spirit at odds with one another, just as Paul did in Romans 8. This means “πνεύματι περιπατεῖτε καὶ ἐπιθυμίαν σαρκὸς οὐ μὴ τελέσητε” (Galatians 5:16). The desires of the flesh are the things that you want to do by nature (which Paul listed in Galatians 5:19–21).

The reason this was brought up in a discussion of law keeping? Because Paul is saying that being free from observance of Torah law does not mean that you are free to do any old thing that you want to do. You are not free to be immoral just because you are not under law. Rather, those who walk with the spirit with produce the fruit of the spirit (Galatians 5:22–23).
Jason A. Hare
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