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Statement or Question

Posted: September 20th, 2011, 5:34 am
by Alan Patterson
Acts 15...

3 οι μεν ουν προπεμφθεντες υπο της εκκλησιας διηρχοντο την τε φοινικην και σαμαρειαν εκδιηγουμενοι την επιστροφην των εθνων και εποιουν χαραν μεγαλην πασιν τοις αδελφοις

4 παραγενομενοι δε εις ιεροσολυμα παρεδεχθησαν απο της εκκλησιας και των αποστολων και των πρεσβυτερων ανηγγειλαν τε οσα ο θεος εποιησεν μετ αυτων

5 εξανεστησαν δε τινες των απο της αιρεσεως των φαρισαιων πεπιστευκοτες λεγοντες οτι δει περιτεμνειν αυτους παραγγελλειν τε τηρειν τον νομον μωυσεως

6 συνηχθησαν τε οι αποστολοι και οι πρεσβυτεροι ιδειν περι του λογου τουτου

I am wondering if verse 5 can be taken as a question so that verse 6 [ιδειν περι του λογου τουτου] indicates that the Apostles began to deliberate the matter. These φαρισαιων were among the believers [πεπιστευκοτες], meaning they did not perform various Mosaic rituals to "attain" salvation [a concept quite unfamiliar, at least, with Paul, if one accepts a Systematic Theological approach]. Does the δε of verse 5 impact this issue?

Re: Statement or Question

Posted: September 20th, 2011, 3:31 pm
by cwconrad
Alan Patterson wrote:Acts 15...

3 οι μεν ουν προπεμφθεντες υπο της εκκλησιας διηρχοντο την τε φοινικην και σαμαρειαν εκδιηγουμενοι την επιστροφην των εθνων και εποιουν χαραν μεγαλην πασιν τοις αδελφοις

4 παραγενομενοι δε εις ιεροσολυμα παρεδεχθησαν απο της εκκλησιας και των αποστολων και των πρεσβυτερων ανηγγειλαν τε οσα ο θεος εποιησεν μετ αυτων

5 εξανεστησαν δε τινες των απο της αιρεσεως των φαρισαιων πεπιστευκοτες λεγοντες οτι δει περιτεμνειν αυτους παραγγελλειν τε τηρειν τον νομον μωυσεως

6 συνηχθησαν τε οι αποστολοι και οι πρεσβυτεροι ιδειν περι του λογου τουτου

I am wondering if verse 5 can be taken as a question so that verse 6 [ιδειν περι του λογου τουτου] indicates that the Apostles began to deliberate the matter. These φαρισαιων were among the believers [πεπιστευκοτες], meaning they did not perform various Mosaic rituals to "attain" salvation [a concept quite unfamiliar, at least, with Paul, if one accepts a Systematic Theological approach]. Does the δε of verse 5 impact this issue?
I first saw this earlier this morning, didn't understand the query and thought maybe somebody else would tackle this. I see that nobody has yet risen to the bait. So perhaps others didn't understand the query either.

First, with regard to Acts 15:5, I don't see how any "question" is involved here. The group here identified as "believers of the Pharisaic faction" rose and asserted (ἐξανέστησαν ... λέγοντες) that the new converts should undergo circumcision and be exhorted to observe the Torah. It is their assertion that leads to the discussion in the Jerusalem congregation over the question of obligations that Gentile converts should be expected to observe. I don't see anything in the Greek text here that would lead one to believe that these "believers of the party of the Pharisees" did not observe the Mosaic law as they had been taught to do. Nor is anything said about law-observance as a condition for attaining salvation. It appears to me that more is being read into the Greek text of these verses than can be justified by what the text actually states.

Re: Statement or Question

Posted: September 20th, 2011, 9:43 pm
by Alan Patterson
Here is what got me thinking: the Present Active Infinitive, not the Passive in verse 5, which reads:

5 εξανεστησαν δε τινες των απο της αιρεσεως των φαρισαιων πεπιστευκοτες λεγοντες οτι δει περιτεμνειν αυτους παραγγελλειν τε τηρειν τον νομον μωυσεως

So, I would put into English δει περιτεμνειν αυτους παραγγελλειν τε τηρειν τον νομον μωυσεως as:
Is it necessary to circumcise them
and to command [them] to observe the Law of Moses?

Why do most translations have "to be circumcised" rather that "to circumcise"?

Would not αυτους περιτεμνειν mean "to circumcise them" rather than "for them to be circumcised"? And the second clause translated "to command [them] to observe the Law of Moses." It would not be "for them to be commanded to keep ..."

Also, I took τινες των απο της αιρεσεως των φαρισαιων πεπιστευκοτες to mean that τινες των απο της αιρεσεως των φαρισαιων means some of those who believe from the sect of the Pharisees (i.e., believe the Gospel).

Finally, I apologize for not including the immediately preceding verses. The first three verses read:

1 και τινες κατελθοντες απο της ιουδαιας εδιδασκον τους αδελφους οτι εαν μη περιτμηθητε τω εθει τω μωυσεως ου δυνασθε σωθηναι

2 γενομενης δε στασεως και ζητησεως ουκ ολιγης τω παυλω και τω βαρναβα προς αυτους εταξαν αναβαινειν παυλον και βαρναβαν και τινας αλλους εξ αυτων προς τους αποστολους και πρεσβυτερους εις ιερουσαλημ περι του ζητηματος τουτου

3 οι μεν ουν προπεμφθεντες υπο της εκκλησιας διηρχοντο την τε φοινικην και σαμαρειαν εκδιηγουμενοι την επιστροφην των εθνων και εποιουν χαραν μεγαλην πασιν τοις αδελφοις

Verse 1 is the phase I forgot to include and from which I mentioned the idea of obtaining salvation. The phrase being: ου δυνασθε σωθηναι.

I note in passing that 'circumcised' here is used in the Passive (compare: περιτεμνειν], εαν μη περιτμηθητε τω εθει τω μωυσεως.

The reason I asked the question is because I'm not sure I've run across δει used as I'm questioning. I lost most of my Greek training over the many years and am trying to work from the little I recall. Sorry for the confusion. Please forgive me.

Re: Statement or Question

Posted: September 20th, 2011, 10:59 pm
by Mark Lightman
Hi, Alan,
Would not αυτους περιτεμνειν mean "to circumcise them" rather than "for them to be circumcised"?
Yes.
Why do most translations have "to be circumcised" rather that "to circumcise"?
I don't think that most translations do. Those that do so may be thinking that since the patient (αὐτούς) is expressed but the actor(s) are not, the verb is best expressed in English with a passive.

This business of the actor and the patient in circumcision makes me think of the funniest moment ever on the Johnny Carson show:




Like Carl, I still don't get your point about a question. I don't see any question being raised here in the Greek.

ἔρρωσο.

Re: Statement or Question

Posted: September 21st, 2011, 8:14 am
by Stephen Carlson
As far as I can tell, there is no apparent textual difference between statements and yes-or-no questions in Greek. (There is some evidence, in Aristotle IIRC, that there was an intonation difference, but that information is not indicated in our earliest manuscripts but some later MSS use a question mark.)

Therefore, it seems best to initially presume that any sentence without interrogatives or question particles is an ordinary statement, and the burden is on the one who hopes to show that it should be read as a yes-or-no question.

As for Acts 15:5, I see no compelling reason to view it as a yes-or-no question. It is not enough to establish that a yes-or-no question reading is "possible" here--this reading has to be more plausible than the unmarked (statement) reading.

Stephen