Coining a phrase

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Daniel Semler
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Joined: February 18th, 2019, 7:45 pm

Coining a phrase

Post by Daniel Semler »

Hi All,

I am writing up a small phrase book for myself. I am including categories. All the meta-language, name of the file, categories, the column headings are in Greek. Only the English translations or glosses are in English. As a result I find myself trying to name categories.

One I have is School Questions - questions that one might ask in Greek class, things like "πῶς λέγεις ἐν τῇ Ἑλληνικῇ fruit bowl ?" for example.

My first attempt was ἐρωτήματα ἐν τῇ σχολῇ but that seemed long winded. I then thought there must be a school adjective like σχοληνικος or something similar heading for σχοληνικός ἐρωτήματα. I've landed up with σχολικὰ ἐρωτήματα.

I'd be interested in any comments on this result, or the process in general, and is the result intelligible ?

thx
D
Jason Hare
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Re: Coining a phrase

Post by Jason Hare »

Woodhouse gives τὸ διδασκαλεῖον for "school."

τὰ ἐν τῷ διδασκαλείῳ ἐρωτώμενα - "things asked in the school"

What do you think?
Jason A. Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
ed krentz
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Re: Coining a phrase

Post by ed krentz »

You should not be using the verb λέγω, which should be translated pronounce. Instead the proper verb would be ονομάζω, to give a name to something.
Edgar Krentz
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Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
Stephen Carlson
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Re: Coining a phrase

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Jason Hare wrote: November 12th, 2020, 8:30 am Woodhouse gives τὸ διδασκαλεῖον for "school."

τὰ ἐν τῷ διδασκαλείῳ ἐρωτώμενα - "things asked in the school"

What do you think?
Right, σχολή means "leisure".
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Daniel Semler
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Re: Coining a phrase

Post by Daniel Semler »

Jason Hare wrote: November 12th, 2020, 8:30 am Woodhouse gives τὸ διδασκαλεῖον for "school."

τὰ ἐν τῷ διδασκαλείῳ ἐρωτώμενα - "things asked in the school"

What do you think?
Thanx Jason.

Your response raises two questions:

1. Is the verbal phrasing to be preferred ? Is it more Greek ? might well be and I had considered doing something similar
2. Is διδασκαλεῖον period appropriate to Koine ? I am not familiar with Woodhouse but I found a copy online. The dictionary appears to rely on pre-Koine period sources. I'll address my use of σχολή in a minute.

Thx
D
Daniel Semler
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Re: Coining a phrase

Post by Daniel Semler »

ed krentz wrote: November 12th, 2020, 12:33 pm You should not be using the verb λέγω, which should be translated pronounce. Instead the proper verb would be ονομάζω, to give a name to something.
Hi Ed, many thanx for this. It wasn't actually what I was asking about but my example definitely used a phrasing that I picked up from another source (another phrase book) and then misapplied to this particular example. This raises an interesting question about what should be said about application in such phrase books. Very helpful.

Many thanx
D
Daniel Semler
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Re: Coining a phrase

Post by Daniel Semler »

Stephen Carlson wrote: November 12th, 2020, 8:37 pm
Jason Hare wrote: November 12th, 2020, 8:30 am Woodhouse gives τὸ διδασκαλεῖον for "school."

τὰ ἐν τῷ διδασκαλείῳ ἐρωτώμενα - "things asked in the school"

What do you think?
Right, σχολή means "leisure".
Ah ... σχολή ... hmmmm...

I should have expected that this would be challenged but I have gotten used to using σχολή in this sense in class and didn't really consider it. We use it in the BLC class I am in this sense in material based on the Colloquia of the Hermeneumata. My concern relating to διδασκαλεῖον is noted in my response to Jason.

I realize that BDAG and LSJ list schooling, attending lectures and such as very much a subordinate usage compared to leisure - basically something one might use one's leisure for rather than the meaning of the word itself.

That said I'd be interested in what you think of this for the Koine period (which for argument's sake I take to be -300 -> +300 more or less) :
7.14 σχολή, ῆς f: a building where teachers and students met for study and discussion — ‘lecture hall, school.’ καθ̓ ἡμέραν διαλεγόμενος ἐν τῇ σχολῇ Τυράννου ‘every day he held discussions in the lecture hall of Tyrannus’ Ac 19:9. In Ac 19:9 it is better to use a translation such as ‘lecture hall’ rather than ‘school,’ since one does not wish to give the impression of the typical classroom situation characteristic of present-day schools. One may translate the relevant context of Ac 19:9 as ‘every day Paul discussed with people in the lecture hall which belonged to Tyrannus’ or ‘… in a hall where Tyrannus often taught’ or ‘… lectured.’
L&N, s.v. “σχολή,” 83.
https://accordance.bible/link/read/Louw_&_Nida#1460

4981. σχολή; scholē, scholēs, hē (from schein; hence, properly, German das Anhalten; (cf. English ‘to hold on,’ equivalent to either to stop or to persist));

1. from Pindar down, freedom from labor, leisure.

2. according to later Greek usage, a place where there is leisure for anything, a school (cf. Liddell and Scott, under the word, III.; Winer’s Grammar, 23): Acts 19:9 (Dionysius Halicarnassus, de jud. Isocrates 1; tie vi Dem. 44; often in Plutarch).*
Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, s.v. “σχολή,” paragraph 9084.
https://accordance.bible/link/read/Thayer#9084

σχολή, ῆς f (σχολάζω) lecture hall [Ac 19.9]
A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, s.v. “σχολή,” paragraph 5875.
https://accordance.bible/link/read/Newm ... onary#5875
σχολή, ῆς f Schule
Kleines Wörterbuch zum Neuen Testament Griechisch-Deutsch, s.v. “σχολή,” paragraph 6139.
https://accordance.bible/link/read/GNT_Wšrterbuch#6139

From the Colloquia (Dickey's edition) Cambridge Classical Texts and Commentaries V49 p105
Monacensia-Einsidlensia
Ἀπέρχομαι εἰς τὴν σχολήν. Eo in scholam. I go off to school
I'm not trying to have an argument - I am genuinely grateful for the input and help - but I am wondering what is appropriate to the period ?

Thx
D
Seumas Macdonald
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Re: Coining a phrase

Post by Seumas Macdonald »

You should not be using the verb λέγω, which should be translated pronounce. Instead the proper verb would be ονομάζω, to give a name to something.
Honestly, I try to stay out of arguments for the sake of arguments, but I think Ed's comment is over-restrictive and over-prescriptive of the range of λέγω. It is well within λέγω's range to mean 'to say', 'to define', 'to call', 'to mean', especially the latter. BrillDAG gives clear examples that would pertain to this kind of context:
to mean, signify: τί τοῦτο λέγει, πρὸ Πύλοιο; what does “before Pylos” mean? ARISTOPH. Eq. 1059; πῶς λέγεις; what do you mean?
Personally, I prefer the middle form for the question, πῶς fruitbowl λέγεται Ἑλληνιστί;


As for your main question, I would generally say that διδασκαλεῖον is preferable to σχολή, though the latter does sometimes have the sense of 'school'. And then, my sense is that Greek would generally prefer a periphrastic idiom like ἐρωτήματα ἐν διδασκαλείῳ or similar (plenty of variations would be find), rather than σχολικός. I would hear ἐρωτήματα σχολικά as something more akin to 'scholastic questions'.
Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Coining a phrase

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

ed krentz wrote: November 12th, 2020, 12:33 pm You should not be using the verb λέγω, which should be translated pronounce. Instead the proper verb would be ονομάζω, to give a name to something.
I'm not sure where you are coming from on this, Ed. λέγω is about the most generic way to say "say" as you can get.
① to express oneself orally or in written form, utter in words, say, tell, give expression to, the gener. sense (not in Hom., for this εἶπον, ἐν[ν]έπω, et al.)
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 588). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

I would expect φθέγγομαι or λαλέω for "pronounce." πῶς λέγεις... for "How do you say..." works fine, but I would use the adverbial Ἑλληνιστί rather than ἐν τῇ Ἑλληνικῆ (διαλέκτῳ).
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Daniel Semler
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Re: Coining a phrase

Post by Daniel Semler »

Barry Hofstetter wrote: November 13th, 2020, 8:58 am
ed krentz wrote: November 12th, 2020, 12:33 pm You should not be using the verb λέγω, which should be translated pronounce. Instead the proper verb would be ονομάζω, to give a name to something.
I'm not sure where you are coming from on this, Ed. λέγω is about the most generic way to say "say" as you can get.
① to express oneself orally or in written form, utter in words, say, tell, give expression to, the gener. sense (not in Hom., for this εἶπον, ἐν[ν]έπω, et al.)
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 588). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

I would expect φθέγγομαι or λαλέω for "pronounce." πῶς λέγεις... for "How do you say..." works fine, but I would use the adverbial Ἑλληνιστί rather than ἐν τῇ Ἑλληνικῆ (διαλέκτῳ).
Ok ... interesting also. Thanks Barry. The source of this is a phrase book from Glossa House where the original phrasing is taken from Judges 16.15. Checking further occurrences of πῶς λέγεις in the LXX we see :

Judg. 16:15 καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτὸν Δαλιλα Πῶς ἐρεῖς Ἠγάπηκά σε, καὶ ἡ καρδία σου οὐκ ἔστιν μετ̓ ἐμοῦ; τοῦτο τρίτον παρελογίσω με καὶ οὐκ ἀπήγγειλάς μοι ἐν τίνι ἡ ἰσχύς σου ἡ μεγάλη.

This and all of the other LXX/NT examples I can find are basically of the type "how can you/we say such and such". They are not of the type of what is the word for, how do we translate. The NT examples are the same. Not that it could not be used that way I suppose but that's what I noticed looking at the sources.

But in that vein then, if one were instead to ask τί ὀνομάζεις τοῦτο; what do you call this ? I guess that works better when one has one of "this" to hand. Though I suppose you could say τί ὀνομάζεις fruitbowl Ἑλληνιστί;

For "pronunciation" I have tended to use the perhaps long winded : τίς ἡ ὀρθή προφορά ἐστιν ... though at this point I end up a little stuck and fumble into something like "for bla" or "εἰς βλα". Alas προφέρω does not carry this sense and I'm not especially happy with this either. φθέγγομαι seems to carry the sense of the sound of an utterance better. I'll look more into it.

Thx
D
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