διηγησις - εν τη οδω

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Robert S. Daniel
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διηγησις - εν τη οδω

Post by Robert S. Daniel »

Εν τη οδω
οτε ημην μειρακιον, ηλθεν η οικια μου πολλακις εν οδω, ο πατηρ ελαυνων το αμαξαν, η μητηρ καθημενη εν δεξια αυτου, καγω και η αδελφη μου καθημενοι οπισω των γονεων. μακραν υπαρχουσα η οδος, και υστεριζων τι πρασσειν, ηρξαμην λοιδορειν και κεντριζειν τω δακτυλι μου την αδελφην. η δε, μετα ου πολλυν χρονον, ηρξατο αγανακτειν. ετι μικρον, και αυτή ηρξατο με παταξειν. χρονιζομενοι ουν ουτως λοιδορουμενοι και παταξαντες αλληλων, ηυξανει ο θυμος του πατρος. τελος ηρξατο βοαν και λεγειν μεγαλη φωνη Σιωπατε! και λεγει η αδελφη Ουτος πρωτος ετυψεν. και λεγει ο πατηρ Ου μελει μοι τις πρωτος, αλλα σιωπατε. ει δε μη, στησων το αμαξαν ραβδισω υμας αμφοτεροι. και σιωπαν, εκτενει η αδελφη προς με την γλωσσαν.
nathaniel j. erickson
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Re: διηγησις - εν τη οδω

Post by nathaniel j. erickson »

καλὠς. ἀναγινώσκων σου τὴν διήγησιν ἐμειδίασα.
Nathaniel J. Erickson
NT PhD candidate, ABD
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
ntgreeketal.com
ὅπου πλείων κόπος, πολὺ κέρδος
ΠΡΟΣ ΠΟΛΥΚΑΡΠΟΝ ΙΓΝΑΤΙΟΣ
Barry Hofstetter
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Re: διηγησις - εν τη οδω

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Here's something I wrote for a class sometime ago (originally in Latin, and then in Greek):

Τινὶ ἠμέρᾳ ἄνθρωπος ἐν τοῖς δένδροις ἔβαινε πότε τὸν ἄρκον εἶδεν. ὀ δὲ ἄνθρωπος ἔκραζεν ὅτι “ἄρκους ἀγαπῶ” καὶ τότε ἐκ τῆς πήρας αὐτοῦ βρῶμα ἔλαβε καὶ αὐτὸ τῷ ἄρκῳ ἔδωκεν. ὁ δὲ ἄρκος ἠγαλλιάσατο καὶ φίλος τοῦ ανθρώπου ἐγένετο. ἄφνω ὁ ἄρκος και ὀ ἄνθρωπος λέοντα εἶδον καὶ ὀ ἄνθρωπος ἔρκραζεν ὅτι “μισῶ λέοντας” καὶ τρέχειν ἤρχεν. ὀ μὲν ἄρκος τὸν λέοντα ἐδίωξε καὶ ἐκεῖνος ἀπέδραμεν. ὀ δὲ ἄνθρωπος κραυγῇ μεγάλῃ ἔκραζεν “ἄρκους αγαπῶ.”
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Jason Hare
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Re: διηγησις - εν τη οδω

Post by Jason Hare »

Barry Hofstetter wrote: December 4th, 2020, 8:52 am Here's something I wrote for a class sometime ago (originally in Latin, and then in Greek):

Τινὶ ἠμέρᾳ ἄνθρωπος ἐν τοῖς δένδροις ἔβαινε πότε τὸν ἄρκον εἶδεν. ὀ δὲ ἄνθρωπος ἔκραζεν ὅτι “ἄρκους ἀγαπῶ” καὶ τότε ἐκ τῆς πήρας αὐτοῦ βρῶμα ἔλαβε καὶ αὐτὸ τῷ ἄρκῳ ἔδωκεν. ὁ δὲ ἄρκος ἠγαλλιάσατο καὶ φίλος τοῦ ανθρώπου ἐγένετο. ἄφνω ὁ ἄρκος και ὀ ἄνθρωπος λέοντα εἶδον καὶ ὀ ἄνθρωπος ἔρκραζεν ὅτι “μισῶ λέοντας” καὶ τρέχειν ἤρχεν. ὀ μὲν ἄρκος τὸν λέοντα ἐδίωξε καὶ ἐκεῖνος ἀπέδραμεν. ὀ δὲ ἄνθρωπος κραυγῇ μεγάλῃ ἔκραζεν “ἄρκους αγαπῶ.”
Isn't τις normally postpositive? Wouldn't it be better to start with (ἐν) ἡμέρᾳ τινὶ...? I think it's not postpositive only when it is used with the partitive genitive (τινὲς τῶν μαθητῶν).
Jason A. Hare
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Daniel Semler
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Re: διηγησις - εν τη οδω

Post by Daniel Semler »

Jason Hare wrote: December 4th, 2020, 3:49 pm
Barry Hofstetter wrote: December 4th, 2020, 8:52 am Here's something I wrote for a class sometime ago (originally in Latin, and then in Greek):

Τινὶ ἠμέρᾳ ἄνθρωπος ἐν τοῖς δένδροις ἔβαινε πότε τὸν ἄρκον εἶδεν. ὀ δὲ ἄνθρωπος ἔκραζεν ὅτι “ἄρκους ἀγαπῶ” καὶ τότε ἐκ τῆς πήρας αὐτοῦ βρῶμα ἔλαβε καὶ αὐτὸ τῷ ἄρκῳ ἔδωκεν. ὁ δὲ ἄρκος ἠγαλλιάσατο καὶ φίλος τοῦ ανθρώπου ἐγένετο. ἄφνω ὁ ἄρκος και ὀ ἄνθρωπος λέοντα εἶδον καὶ ὀ ἄνθρωπος ἔρκραζεν ὅτι “μισῶ λέοντας” καὶ τρέχειν ἤρχεν. ὀ μὲν ἄρκος τὸν λέοντα ἐδίωξε καὶ ἐκεῖνος ἀπέδραμεν. ὀ δὲ ἄνθρωπος κραυγῇ μεγάλῃ ἔκραζεν “ἄρκους αγαπῶ.”
Isn't τις normally postpositive? Wouldn't it be better to start with (ἐν) ἡμέρᾳ τινὶ...? I think it's not postpositive only when it is used with the partitive genitive (τινὲς τῶν μαθητῶν).
κατὰ Trenchard τίνι ὑποτακτικὸς (post-positive νομίζω;) ἐστιν, ἀλλὰ τινὶ οὐ. οὐτὸς τί, τίνα, τινάς, τινές, τίνι, τινῶν, τίς, καὶ τισί(ν) ἀναγράφει, ἀλλʹ οὐκ ἄλλο.

Δανιήλ.
Jason Hare
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Re: διηγησις - εν τη οδω

Post by Jason Hare »

Daniel Semler wrote: December 5th, 2020, 1:41 am κατὰ Trenchard τίνι ὑποτακτικὸς (post-positive νομίζω;) ἐστιν, ἀλλὰ τινὶ οὐ. οὐτὸς τί, τίνα, τινάς, τινές, τίνι, τινῶν, τίς, καὶ τισί(ν) ἀναγράφει, ἀλλʹ οὐκ ἄλλο.

Δανιήλ.
But that's exactly wrong. The interrogative τίς κτλ. is particularly not postpositive, while the indefinite τὶς κτλ. is. Thus, one should write ἄνθρωπός τις "a certain man," ἀνθρώπῳ τινὶ "to a certain man," τῆς πόλεώς τινος "of a certain city," etc. (both postpositive and enclitic), but τίς ὁ ἄνθρωπος; "who is the man?" and ταῦτα τίνι ἔδωκας; "to whom did you give these things?", etc. (neither postpositive nor enclitic, though not necessarily the first element in a clause).

Did you mean οὗτος (as properispomenon) in the last sentence? If so, why is it masculine rather than neuter (τοῦτο), whereas ἄλλο is properly neuter? If I write in Greek, it takes me a good long time, since I'm worried about accentuation (ὑποτακτικός ἐστιν above) and concord. It's hard to write correctly in Greek.
Jason A. Hare
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Jason Hare
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Re: διηγησις - εν τη οδω

Post by Jason Hare »

Robert S. Daniel wrote: December 3rd, 2020, 11:20 am Εν τη οδω
οτε ημην μειρακιον, ηλθεν η οικια μου πολλακις εν οδω, ο πατηρ ελαυνων το αμαξαν, η μητηρ καθημενη εν δεξια αυτου, καγω και η αδελφη μου καθημενοι οπισω των γονεων. μακραν υπαρχουσα η οδος, και υστεριζων τι πρασσειν, ηρξαμην λοιδορειν και κεντριζειν τω δακτυλι μου την αδελφην. η δε, μετα ου πολλυν χρονον, ηρξατο αγανακτειν. ετι μικρον, και αυτή ηρξατο με παταξειν. χρονιζομενοι ουν ουτως λοιδορουμενοι και παταξαντες αλληλων, ηυξανει ο θυμος του πατρος. τελος ηρξατο βοαν και λεγειν μεγαλη φωνη Σιωπατε! και λεγει η αδελφη Ουτος πρωτος ετυψεν. και λεγει ο πατηρ Ου μελει μοι τις πρωτος, αλλα σιωπατε. ει δε μη, στησων το αμαξαν ραβδισω υμας αμφοτεροι. και σιωπαν, εκτενει η αδελφη προς με την γλωσσαν.
Just to help me understand, did you mean τὴν ἅμαξαν ("the wagon") as a generic idea for "car"? It's feminine (τήν rather than τό).

I think you should have the accusative in the phrase πατάξαντες ἀλλήλους (rather than genitive), just like ὑμᾶς ἀμφοτέρους (rather than nominative) in the next-to-last sentence.

I'm not sure what the infinitive (σιωπᾶν) is doing in the last sentence, though. Wouldn't an aorist work better (ἐσιωπήσαμεν), perhaps with δή instead of καί?

I enjoyed reading the story, though. I especially liked the part about her sticking out her tongue at the end. :)
Jason A. Hare
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Daniel Semler
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Re: διηγησις - εν τη οδω

Post by Daniel Semler »

Jason Hare wrote: December 5th, 2020, 9:28 am
Daniel Semler wrote: December 5th, 2020, 1:41 am κατὰ Trenchard τίνι ὑποτακτικὸς (post-positive νομίζω;) ἐστιν, ἀλλὰ τινὶ οὐ. οὐτὸς τί, τίνα, τινάς, τινές, τίνι, τινῶν, τίς, καὶ τισί(ν) ἀναγράφει, ἀλλʹ οὐκ ἄλλο.

Δανιήλ.
But that's exactly wrong. The interrogative τίς κτλ. is particularly not postpositive, while the indefinite τὶς κτλ. is. Thus, one should write ἄνθρωπός τις "a certain man," ἀνθρώπῳ τινὶ "to a certain man," τῆς πόλεώς τινος "of a certain city," etc. (both postpositive and enclitic), but τίς ὁ ἄνθρωπος; "who is the man?" and ταῦτα τίνι ἔδωκας; "to whom did you give these things?", etc. (neither postpositive nor enclitic, though not necessarily the first element in a clause).

Did you mean οὗτος (as properispomenon) in the last sentence? If so, why is it masculine rather than neuter (τοῦτο), whereas ἄλλο is properly neuter? If I write in Greek, it takes me a good long time, since I'm worried about accentuation (ὑποτακτικός ἐστιν above) and concord. It's hard to write correctly in Greek.
τὸ δεύτερον πρῶτον - ναὶ οὗτος περισπωμένως. ουπς :) What I was going for was "he lists .... but nothing else" so "οὗτος .... records but no other" was about as close as I could get quickly. I am getting better with accents but make mistakes - obviously - no way to improve but to do it really.

νῦν τὸ πρῶτον. The interrogatives are accented on the penult in all cases except for the single syllable words in which case the ultima, but all accented. The indefs are all on the ultima except the singular noms and the neuter sing acc which are unaccented. With that preamble looking at Trenchard again he appears to be accenting the indef in his list. I wish I had this in soft copy as it would be easier to paste in. For τίς, this form explicitly he says this :

τίς, τί (525) someone, anyone, something, anything; some any (adj)

well this just seems wrong because this is the interrogative τίς but the description is of the indef. I don't understand. Of course, that rather thows into question the rest of his entries and indeed he has some single syllable entries which makes it hard. but I've generally found his postpositives list to be reliable.

That said I had run a search on τινί before I wrote my reply and indeed it does not seem to be post-positive in that form. But I saw in those results a lot of cases of three datives in a row with τινί in the middle which rather raises the question. A quick glance at one case didn't seem to indicate it had to be a postpositive.

So time for a new reference.

(j) FLUCTUATING WORDS. There is another group of words that vary in the matter, now postpositive, now not. ..... The indefinite τὶς sometimes comes first in the sentence, as τινὲς δέ (Lu. 6:2). Enclitics can therefore stand at the beginning, though not commonly so. In the case of ἕνεκεν its position is usually before the word except with the interrogative, as τίνος ἕνεκεν (Ac. 19:32), or a relative, as οὗεἵνεκεν (Lu. 4:18). But χάριν follows its case save in χάριν τίνος (1 Jo. 3:12). Χωρίς precedes the word, but note οὗ χωρίς (Heb. 12:14). The N. T. therefore shows rather more freedom with these words.

A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, Accordance electronic ed. (London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1919), 424-425.
https://accordance.bible/link/read/Robertson_Greek#3640

Bold mine.

CGCG states that
Postpositive words attach themselves o the preceding word. From this it follows that postpositive words may not normally occur as the first word in the clause. The most important postpositive words are:
....
....
- indefinites like τις (not τίς), ποτε (not πότε), που (not ποῦ), etc.
Given that's classical not Koine I am not quite sure how to use it but the "normally" suggests wriggle room to me.

I forgot one other thing - the indefinites are enclitic too. I vaguely recall that I ran across this before but just saw it in Steven's now.

Which makes me wonder about these three examples.

Going back to my searches then there are only three uses of τινί:
Luke 11:1 ¶ Καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῷ εἶναι αὐτὸν ἐν τόπῳ τινὶ προσευχόμενον, ὡς ἐπαύσατο, εἶπέν τις τῶν μαθητῶν αὐτοῦ πρὸς αὐτόν· κύριε, δίδαξον ἡμᾶς προσεύχεσθαι, καθὼς καὶ Ἰωάννης ἐδίδαξεν τοὺς μαθητὰς αὐτοῦ.
Luke 12:15 Εἶπεν δὲ πρὸς αὐτούς· ὁρᾶτε καὶ φυλάσσεσθε ἀπὸ πάσης πλεονεξίας, ὅτι οὐκ ἐν τῷ περισσεύειν τινὶ ἡ ζωὴ αὐτοῦ ἐστιν ἐκ τῶν ὑπαρχόντων αὐτῷ.
Acts 5:15 ὥστε καὶ εἰς τὰς πλατείας ἐκφέρειν τοὺς ἀσθενεῖς καὶ τιθέναι ἐπὶ κλιναρίων καὶ κραβάττων, ἵνα ἐρχομένου Πέτρου κἂν ἡ σκιὰ ἐπισκιάσῃ τινὶ αὐτῶν.

The first two are post-positive, but the third looks not.

Also not post-positive I think:
Luke 18:2 λέγων· κριτής τις ἦν ἔν τινι πόλει τὸν θεὸν μὴ φοβούμενος καὶ ἄνθρωπον μὴ ἐντρεπόμενος.
Acts 9:43 Ἐγένετο δὲ ἡμέρας ἱκανὰς μεῖναι ἐν Ἰόππῃ παρά τινι Σίμωνι βυρσεῖ.
Acts 10:6 οὗτος ξενίζεται παρά τινι Σίμωνι βυρσεῖ, ᾧ ἐστιν οἰκία παρὰ θάλασσαν.

But also many post-positive cases too.

So it looks variable to me. ἀλλ᾽ ὡς λέγουσιν, οὐ γινώσκω.

Thx
D
RandallButh
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Re: διηγησις - εν τη οδω

Post by RandallButh »

Τινὶ ἠμέρᾳ ἄνθρωπος ἐν τοῖς δένδροις ἔβαινε πότε τὸν ἄρκον εἶδεν. ὀ δὲ ἄνθρωπος ἔκραζεν ὅτι “ἄρκους ἀγαπῶ” καὶ τότε ἐκ τῆς πήρας αὐτοῦ βρῶμα ἔλαβε καὶ αὐτὸ τῷ ἄρκῳ ἔδωκεν. ὁ δὲ ἄρκος ἠγαλλιάσατο καὶ φίλος τοῦ ανθρώπου ἐγένετο. ἄφνω ὁ ἄρκος και ὀ ἄνθρωπος λέοντα εἶδον καὶ ὀ ἄνθρωπος ἔρκραζεν ὅτι “μισῶ λέοντας” καὶ τρέχειν ἤρχεν. ὀ μὲν ἄρκος τὸν λέοντα ἐδίωξε καὶ ἐκεῖνος ἀπέδραμεν. ὀ δὲ ἄνθρωπος κραυγῇ μεγάλῃ ἔκραζεν “ἄρκους αγαπῶ.”
ἠμέρᾳ τινὶ ἄνθρωπος ἐν τοῖς δένδροις πορευόμενος εἶδεν ἄρκον καὶ ἔκραζεν ὅτι “ἄρκους ἀγαπῶ.” τότε οὖν ἐκ τῆς πήρας αὐτοῦ βρῶμα ἔλαβε καὶ ἔδωκεν τῷ ἄρκῳ. ὁ δὲ ἄρκος ἠγαλλιάσατο καὶ φίλος τοῦ ανθρώπου ἐγένετο. ἄφνω ὁ ἄρκος και ὀ ἄνθρωπος εἶδον λέοντα. ὀ μὲν ἄνθρωπος ἔρκραζεν ὅτι “μισῶ λέοντας” καὶ ἤρξατο τρέχειν. ὀ δὲ ἄρκος ἐδίωξε τὸν λέοντα καὶ ἐκεῖνος ἀπέδραμεν. ὀ δὲ ἄνθρωπος κραυγῇ μεγάλῃ ἔκραζεν “ἄρκους αγαπῶ.”
Robert S. Daniel
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Re: διηγησις - εν τη οδω

Post by Robert S. Daniel »

Jason Hare wrote: December 5th, 2020, 10:14 am
Robert S. Daniel wrote: December 3rd, 2020, 11:20 am Εν τη οδω
οτε ημην μειρακιον, ηλθεν η οικια μου πολλακις εν οδω, ο πατηρ ελαυνων το αμαξαν, η μητηρ καθημενη εν δεξια αυτου, καγω και η αδελφη μου καθημενοι οπισω των γονεων. μακραν υπαρχουσα η οδος, και υστεριζων τι πρασσειν, ηρξαμην λοιδορειν και κεντριζειν τω δακτυλι μου την αδελφην. η δε, μετα ου πολλυν χρονον, ηρξατο αγανακτειν. ετι μικρον, και αυτή ηρξατο με παταξειν. χρονιζομενοι ουν ουτως λοιδορουμενοι και παταξαντες αλληλων, ηυξανει ο θυμος του πατρος. τελος ηρξατο βοαν και λεγειν μεγαλη φωνη Σιωπατε! και λεγει η αδελφη Ουτος πρωτος ετυψεν. και λεγει ο πατηρ Ου μελει μοι τις πρωτος, αλλα σιωπατε. ει δε μη, στησων το αμαξαν ραβδισω υμας αμφοτεροι. και σιωπαν, εκτενει η αδελφη προς με την γλωσσαν.
Just to help me understand, did you mean τὴν ἅμαξαν ("the wagon") as a generic idea for "car"? It's feminine (τήν rather than τό).

I think you should have the accusative in the phrase πατάξαντες ἀλλήλους (rather than genitive), just like ὑμᾶς ἀμφοτέρους (rather than nominative) in the next-to-last sentence.

I'm not sure what the infinitive (σιωπᾶν) is doing in the last sentence, though. Wouldn't an aorist work better (ἐσιωπήσαμεν), perhaps with δή instead of καί?

I enjoyed reading the story, though. I especially liked the part about her sticking out her tongue at the end. :)
Hi Jason, Thanks for your feedback on this story. About the αμαξαν, I guess you can think of it as a car, although I just kind of thought of the story as reflecting something of my own experience (not that I would ever confess to having pestered my little sister) using the materials at hand: the tiny subset of Koine Greek that inhabits my brain. Since there is no word in Koine that I know of for "automobile" I just picked something analogous. I imagine that a family traveling by oxcart wouldn't have quite the same dynamic as one traveling in a Ford station wagon, since it wouldn't be an enclosed space. But chalk it up to artistic license, if you can think of this as an art form. I think you are right about your comments about the grammar. Doubtless there are stylistic deficiencies as well. Maybe I will get around to editing the story and posting a fixed version. Maybe there will be some other editorial suggestions from you or somebody else. By the way, composing a story like this is a great learning experience. I'm sure that fixing mistakes will be as well. Maybe some more of y'all out there will be inspired to give it a go. Barry said he would like to see more activity in this forum. Why not? Somebody once said (was it Buth?) that to master a language, you have to make 30,000 mistakes. So consider this a small step in the direction of mastery.
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