Jason Hare wrote: ↑December 5th, 2020, 9:28 am
Daniel Semler wrote: ↑December 5th, 2020, 1:41 am
κατὰ Trenchard τίνι ὑποτακτικὸς (post-positive νομίζω;) ἐστιν, ἀλλὰ τινὶ οὐ. οὐτὸς τί, τίνα, τινάς, τινές, τίνι, τινῶν, τίς, καὶ τισί(ν) ἀναγράφει, ἀλλʹ οὐκ ἄλλο.
Δανιήλ.
But that's exactly wrong. The interrogative
τίς κτλ. is particularly
not postpositive, while the indefinite
τὶς κτλ. is. Thus, one should write
ἄνθρωπός τις "a certain man,"
ἀνθρώπῳ τινὶ "to a certain man,"
τῆς πόλεώς τινος "of a certain city," etc. (both postpositive and enclitic), but
τίς ὁ ἄνθρωπος; "who is the man?" and
ταῦτα τίνι ἔδωκας; "to whom did you give these things?", etc. (neither postpositive nor enclitic, though not necessarily the first element in a clause).
Did you mean
οὗτος (as properispomenon) in the last sentence? If so, why is it masculine rather than neuter (
τοῦτο), whereas
ἄλλο is properly neuter? If I write in Greek, it takes me a good long time, since I'm worried about accentuation (
ὑποτακτικός ἐστιν above) and concord. It's hard to write correctly in Greek.
τὸ δεύτερον πρῶτον - ναὶ οὗτος περισπωμένως. ουπς
What I was going for was "he lists .... but nothing else" so "οὗτος .... records but no other" was about as close as I could get quickly. I am getting better with accents but make mistakes - obviously - no way to improve but to do it really.
νῦν τὸ πρῶτον. The interrogatives are accented on the penult in all cases except for the single syllable words in which case the ultima, but all accented. The indefs are all on the ultima except the singular noms and the neuter sing acc which are unaccented. With that preamble looking at Trenchard again he appears to be accenting the indef in his list. I wish I had this in soft copy as it would be easier to paste in. For τίς, this form explicitly he says this :
τίς, τί (525) someone, anyone, something, anything; some any (adj)
well this just seems wrong because this is the interrogative τίς but the description is of the indef. I don't understand. Of course, that rather thows into question the rest of his entries and indeed he has some single syllable entries which makes it hard. but I've generally found his postpositives list to be reliable.
That said I had run a search on τινί before I wrote my reply and indeed it does not seem to be post-positive in that form. But I saw in those results a lot of cases of three datives in a row with τινί in the middle which rather raises the question. A quick glance at one case didn't seem to indicate it had to be a postpositive.
So time for a new reference.
(j) FLUCTUATING WORDS. There is another group of words that vary in the matter, now postpositive, now not. .....
The indefinite τὶς sometimes comes first in the sentence, as τινὲς δέ (Lu. 6:2). Enclitics can therefore stand at the beginning, though not commonly so. In the case of ἕνεκεν its position is usually before the word except with the interrogative, as τίνος ἕνεκεν (Ac. 19:32), or a relative, as οὗεἵνεκεν (Lu. 4:18). But χάριν follows its case save in χάριν τίνος (1 Jo. 3:12). Χωρίς precedes the word, but note οὗ χωρίς (Heb. 12:14). The N. T. therefore shows rather more freedom with these words.
A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, Accordance electronic ed. (London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1919), 424-425.
https://accordance.bible/link/read/Robertson_Greek#3640
Bold mine.
CGCG states that
Postpositive words attach themselves o the preceding word. From this it follows that postpositive words may not normally occur as the first word in the clause. The most important postpositive words are:
....
....
- indefinites like τις (not τίς), ποτε (not πότε), που (not ποῦ), etc.
Given that's classical not Koine I am not quite sure how to use it but the "normally" suggests wriggle room to me.
I forgot one other thing - the indefinites are enclitic too. I vaguely recall that I ran across this before but just saw it in Steven's now.
Which makes me wonder about these three examples.
Going back to my searches then there are only three uses of τινί:
Luke 11:1 ¶ Καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῷ εἶναι αὐτὸν ἐν τόπῳ τινὶ προσευχόμενον, ὡς ἐπαύσατο, εἶπέν τις τῶν μαθητῶν αὐτοῦ πρὸς αὐτόν· κύριε, δίδαξον ἡμᾶς προσεύχεσθαι, καθὼς καὶ Ἰωάννης ἐδίδαξεν τοὺς μαθητὰς αὐτοῦ.
Luke 12:15 Εἶπεν δὲ πρὸς αὐτούς· ὁρᾶτε καὶ φυλάσσεσθε ἀπὸ πάσης πλεονεξίας, ὅτι οὐκ ἐν τῷ περισσεύειν τινὶ ἡ ζωὴ αὐτοῦ ἐστιν ἐκ τῶν ὑπαρχόντων αὐτῷ.
Acts 5:15 ὥστε καὶ εἰς τὰς πλατείας ἐκφέρειν τοὺς ἀσθενεῖς καὶ τιθέναι ἐπὶ κλιναρίων καὶ κραβάττων, ἵνα ἐρχομένου Πέτρου κἂν ἡ σκιὰ ἐπισκιάσῃ τινὶ αὐτῶν.
The first two are post-positive, but the third looks not.
Also not post-positive I think:
Luke 18:2 λέγων· κριτής τις ἦν ἔν τινι πόλει τὸν θεὸν μὴ φοβούμενος καὶ ἄνθρωπον μὴ ἐντρεπόμενος.
Acts 9:43 Ἐγένετο δὲ ἡμέρας ἱκανὰς μεῖναι ἐν Ἰόππῃ παρά τινι Σίμωνι βυρσεῖ.
Acts 10:6 οὗτος ξενίζεται παρά τινι Σίμωνι βυρσεῖ, ᾧ ἐστιν οἰκία παρὰ θάλασσαν.
But also many post-positive cases too.
So it looks variable to me. ἀλλ᾽ ὡς λέγουσιν, οὐ γινώσκω.
Thx
D