A papyrus for linguistic fun and profit...

Other Greek writings of the New Testament era, including papyri and inscriptions
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Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Alex Hopkins
Posts: 59
Joined: June 10th, 2011, 7:15 am

Re: A papyrus for linguistic fun and profit...

Post by Alex Hopkins »

In Barry's latest challenge, the final line reads
τῆι ιϛ ἀπὸ ὥρας θ.
It may be helpful to note that there's a table of the Greek numerals at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_numerals. Important to know these to turn up for dinner at the right time.

- Alex Hopkins
Melbourne, Australia
Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 2016
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: A papyrus for linguistic fun and profit...

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Alex Hopkins wrote: April 23rd, 2021, 8:30 am In Barry's latest challenge, the final line reads
τῆι ιϛ ἀπὸ ὥρας θ.
It may be helpful to note that there's a table of the Greek numerals at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_numerals. Important to know these to turn up for dinner at the right time.

- Alex Hopkins
Melbourne, Australia
You beat me to it, I was just about to post this one:

http://www.hellenicaworld.com/Greece/Sc ... nting.html
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 2016
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: A papyrus for linguistic fun and profit...

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Another short and sweet along the lines of the previous one.

Ἐρωτᾷ σε Διονύσιος δειπνῆ-
σαι εἰς τοὺς γάμους τῶν τέκνων
ἑαυτοῦ ἐν τῇ Ἰσχυρίωνος αὔριον,
ἥτις ἐστὶν λ, ἀπὸ ὥρας θ

Enjoy!
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
S Walch
Posts: 210
Joined: June 13th, 2011, 4:27 pm
Location: Manchester, UK

Re: A papyrus for linguistic fun and profit...

Post by S Walch »

Dionysius invites you to dine at his children's wedding* tomorrow at the (house?) of Ischyrion, that being the 30th, from the 9th hour.

* It is plural, but not quite sure that works here in English translation.

Interesting that both this and the previous one just use dative article + genitive of person to indicate "at the house/place."
Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 2016
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: A papyrus for linguistic fun and profit...

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

S Walch wrote: May 1st, 2021, 12:04 pm Dionysius invites you to dine at his children's wedding* tomorrow at the (house?) of Ischyrion, that being the 30th, from the 9th hour.

* It is plural, but not quite sure that works here in English translation.

Interesting that both this and the previous one just use dative article + genitive of person to indicate "at the house/place."
It's often used in the plural where we would expect a singular.
γάμος, ου, ὁ (Hom.+; sg. and pl. are oft. used interchangeably w. no difference in mng.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 188). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
nathaniel j. erickson
Posts: 71
Joined: May 16th, 2016, 9:27 am
Contact:

Re: A papyrus for linguistic fun and profit...

Post by nathaniel j. erickson »

εἰς τοὺς γάμους τῶν τέκνων
ἑαυτοῦ
Reading in Tobit today I noticed that once the man and woman became what we would call "engaged" the parents of either of them started using child/son/daughter language for the child's soon to be spouse. I wonder if that is the cultural logic behind the plural τέκνων here? Was that sort of "son" and "daughter" language typical in broader Greco-Roman culture for the spouse of your child? No idea where this papyri is from. The sender has a Greek name, but that doesn't necessarily mean much concerning his cultural heritage.
Nathaniel J. Erickson
NT PhD candidate, ABD
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
ntgreeketal.com
ὅπου πλείων κόπος, πολὺ κέρδος
ΠΡΟΣ ΠΟΛΥΚΑΡΠΟΝ ΙΓΝΑΤΙΟΣ
S Walch
Posts: 210
Joined: June 13th, 2011, 4:27 pm
Location: Manchester, UK

Re: A papyrus for linguistic fun and profit...

Post by S Walch »

Barry Hofstetter wrote: May 1st, 2021, 6:43 pmIt's often used in the plural where we would expect a singular.
γάμος, ου, ὁ (Hom.+; sg. and pl. are oft. used interchangeably w. no difference in mng.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 188). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
Thanks, Barry. :)

Checking the NT we see this most clearly in Matt 22:2-12, where both the singular and plural are used to refer to the same "wedding celebration". Luke only uses the plural (12:36; 14:8), and John the singular (GoJ 2:1-2; Rev 19:7, 9). Surely there must be some sort of reason why the plural and singular could be used interchangeably? If it wasn't for Luke 12:36 and John 2:2 I would've seen it as something particular to the accusative (7/8 accusatives of γάμος are plural in the NT; all 5 nominatives are singular; 3/4 genitives are singular), but Luke's genitive and John's singular accusative have thrown a spanner in the works on that idea!

Anyone with any other Greek (or Latin?) words which work similarly to γάμος?
nathaniel j. erickson wrote:Reading in Tobit today I noticed that once the man and woman became what we would call "engaged" the parents of either of them started using child/son/daughter language for the child's soon to be spouse. I wonder if that is the cultural logic behind the plural τέκνων here? Was that sort of "son" and "daughter" language typical in broader Greco-Roman culture for the spouse of your child? No idea where this papyri is from. The sender has a Greek name, but that doesn't necessarily mean much concerning his cultural heritage.
After a google, the papyrus in question is P. Oxy. 3 524 (Trismegistos link), so its provenance is Greco-Roman Egypt. It is more than possible this is a son-daughter marriage. One would need a few more examples of the same to demonstrate either way. :)
Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 2016
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: A papyrus for linguistic fun and profit...

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Another one for this weekend.

This one's a bit different, but suprisingly understandable.

1 Ὁ παράπλους τοῦ Ἀνταιοπολίτου
2 ὀχληρότατός ἐστιν καὶ καθʼ ἑκάσ-
3 την ἡμέραν βαροῦμαι διʼ αὐτὸν
4 καὶ λείαν τῷ πράγματι καταξύο-
5 μαι. ἐὰν δέῃ τῷ ἀδελφῶι τῆς μη-
6 τρὸς τῶν υἱῶν Ἀχιλλᾶ δοθῆναι
7 σπονδάριον καλῶς ποιήσεις δοὺς
8 λωτοῦ παρὰ Σαραπίωνος ἐκ τοῦ
9 ἐμοῦ λόγου. μέμνησο τοῦ νυκ-
10 τελίου Ἴσιδος τοῦ ἐν τῶι Σαρα-
11 πιείωι.

Notes: λείαν = λίαν
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
S Walch
Posts: 210
Joined: June 13th, 2011, 4:27 pm
Location: Manchester, UK

Re: A papyrus for linguistic fun and profit...

Post by S Walch »

The voyage by Antaeopolite is very vexing, and each day I am depressed because of it, and am very worried by the matter.
If it is necessary to give a fee to the brother of the mother of the son* of Axilla, you do well by giving it after you have received* it from Sarapion out of my own expense. Remember the night of Isis that is at the Serapis-Temple.



* I had "I am your father's, brother's, nephew's, cousin's former roommate" from Spaceballs flashbacks whilst reading this.
* papyri.info gives this as λαβῶν rather than λωτοῦ - http://papyri.info/ddbdp/p.oxy;3;525#to-app-app01
Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 2016
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: A papyrus for linguistic fun and profit...

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

S Walch wrote: May 9th, 2021, 5:38 am The voyage by Antaeopolite is very vexing, and each day I am depressed because of it, and am very worried by the matter.
If it is necessary to give a fee to the brother of the mother of the son* of Axilla, you do well by giving it after you have received* it from Sarapion out of my own expense. Remember the night of Isis that is at the Serapis-Temple.



* I had "I am your father's, brother's, nephew's, cousin's former roommate" from Spaceballs flashbacks whilst reading this.
* papyri.info gives this as λαβῶν rather than λωτοῦ - http://papyri.info/ddbdp/p.oxy;3;525#to-app-app01
I actually couldn't access that site before posting (It was apparently down). My purpose in posting these to have a bit of fun seeing "NT Greek" outside of the NT context, not necessarily the latest "critical" edition. However, I rather like the lotus reading. Not only is it the lectio difficilior, but apparently the lotus figured fairly prominently in Egyptian culture and worship (someone on facebook where I also posted this found an ancient Egyptian picture of Isis being offered a lotus). So while λαβών makes for a smoother reading, lotus is certainly possible, and would not be nearly as odd as it sounds at first to us. A nice article on the lotus in ancient Egypt:

https://sites.google.com/site/isislotus ... ient-egypt
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
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