Rank shifting
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Rank shifting
Which of the following makes for a good continuation and which are not good Greek?
(Optional words are in parentheses and alternatives in brackets.)
Γινώσκομεν ὅτι ὁ Ἀκύλας φιλεῖ τὴν Πρίσκιλλαν. Τοῦτ' ἔστιν, γινώσκομεν
(1) τὴν φιλίαν (τὴν) [ἀπὸ, ἐκ, παρὰ] τοῦ Ἀκύλα [εἰς, πρὸς] τὴν Πρίσκιλλαν.
(2) τὴν φιλίαν (τὴν) [ἀπὸ, ἐκ, παρὰ] τοῦ Ἀκύλα ἐν τῇ Πρισκίλλῃ.
(3) τὴν φιλίαν (τὴν) τοῦ Ἀκύλα [εἰς, πρὸς] τὴν Πρίσκιλλαν.
(4) τὴν φιλίαν (τὴν) τοῦ Ἀκύλα ἐν τῇ Πρισκίλλῃ.
(5) τὴν φιλίαν (τὴν) τῆς Πρισκίλλης [ἀπὸ, ἐκ, παρὰ] τοῦ Ἀκύλα.
Are there any permissible variants that were not expressed above?
How can we generalize the results to other verbal nouns? In other words, how are clauses rank shifted from full clause to a noun phrase in general?
(Optional words are in parentheses and alternatives in brackets.)
Γινώσκομεν ὅτι ὁ Ἀκύλας φιλεῖ τὴν Πρίσκιλλαν. Τοῦτ' ἔστιν, γινώσκομεν
(1) τὴν φιλίαν (τὴν) [ἀπὸ, ἐκ, παρὰ] τοῦ Ἀκύλα [εἰς, πρὸς] τὴν Πρίσκιλλαν.
(2) τὴν φιλίαν (τὴν) [ἀπὸ, ἐκ, παρὰ] τοῦ Ἀκύλα ἐν τῇ Πρισκίλλῃ.
(3) τὴν φιλίαν (τὴν) τοῦ Ἀκύλα [εἰς, πρὸς] τὴν Πρίσκιλλαν.
(4) τὴν φιλίαν (τὴν) τοῦ Ἀκύλα ἐν τῇ Πρισκίλλῃ.
(5) τὴν φιλίαν (τὴν) τῆς Πρισκίλλης [ἀπὸ, ἐκ, παρὰ] τοῦ Ἀκύλα.
Are there any permissible variants that were not expressed above?
How can we generalize the results to other verbal nouns? In other words, how are clauses rank shifted from full clause to a noun phrase in general?
Kimmo Huovila
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Re: Rank shifting
Assuming that you are taking everything that a non-native speakers says about a language with a healthy-sized grain of salt, I would say that none of your versions are true in all the permutations that your symbols seem to suggest are possible. I think that only your option 3 - without the "(τὴν)" - works.
I hope I've understood your symbols correctly:(3) τὴν φιλίαν (τὴν) τοῦ Ἀκύλα [εἰς, πρὸς] τὴν Πρίσκιλλαν.
- τὴν φιλίαν αὐτῶν.
- τὴν φιλίαν τοῦ Ἀκύλα καὶ τῆς Πρισκίλλης ([εἰς, πρὸς] ἀλλήλους).
- τὴν φιλίαν ἣν λαμβάνει ἡ Πρισκίλλη παρὰ τοῦ Ἀκύλα.
- τὴν φιλίαν τὴν λη(μ)φθεῖσαν [ὑπὸ τῆς Πρισκίλλης, τῇ Πρισκίλλῃ] παρὰ τοῦ Ἀκύλα.
- I don't think it is a gender dependent word, so reversing the people involved would seem to work too.
- Different word orders for this and your other examples are possible too.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Re: Rank shifting
I wonder whether φιλία is the proper word here. Would we say that Aquila and Priscilla are φίλοι? It's curious that the noun appears only once in the GNT:
Jas 4:4 μοιχαλίδες, οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ἡ φιλία τοῦ κόσμου ἔχθρα τοῦ θεοῦ ἐστιν;
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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Re: Rank shifting
Speaking in the "abstract" is not so common in the New Testament - I mean speaking in the voice of a commentator on the text. (i.e. an attempt at translating a modern commentary ends up with a lot of -οτης / -ία, ἡ words to describe the adjectives / nouns in the Biblical text, and so on, φιλία is a commentary on the descriptive word φίλος). There are other texts of the same period that have a high degree of abstraction.cwconrad wrote:It's curious that the noun appears only once in the GNT:
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
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Re: Rank shifting
Yes it would make more sense if we used a verb and noun relating to marriage partners. οἴδατε ὅτι Πρίσκιλλα ἡ γυνὴ αὐτοῦ.cwconrad wrote:I wonder whether φιλία is the proper word here. Would we say that Aquila and Priscilla are φίλοι? It's curious that the noun appears only once in the GNT:Jas 4:4 μοιχαλίδες, οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ἡ φιλία τοῦ κόσμου ἔχθρα τοῦ θεοῦ ἐστιν;
The following looks to me like well formed English translated into Greek literally.
Γινώσκομεν ὅτι ὁ Ἀκύλας φιλεῖ τὴν Πρίσκιλλαν. Τοῦτ' ἔστιν, γινώσκομεν
C. Stirling Bartholomew
Re: Rank shifting
"Speaking in the abstract" is something that is frowned on in courses in ancient Greek composition; there's a lot of substantivized adjectives (τὸ ἀγαθόν, τὸ καλόν); there's the weird noun καλοκἀγαθία derived from the Athenian equivalent of "a gentleman and a scholar" (a rather archaic ideal!), καλὸς κἀγαθός. But I thought it was indeed curious that ἡ φιλία appears only once in the GNT while ἡ ἀγάπη appears no less than 116 times.Stephen Hughes wrote:Speaking in the "abstract" is not so common in the New Testament - I mean speaking in the voice of a commentator on the text. (i.e. an attempt at translating a modern commentary ends up with a lot of -οτης / -ία, ἡ words to describe the adjectives / nouns in the Biblical text, and so on, φιλία is a commentary on the descriptive word φίλος). There are other texts of the same period that have a high degree of abstraction.cwconrad wrote:It's curious that the noun appears only once in the GNT:
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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Re: Rank shifting
Longus' love story, Daphnis and Cloe has;cwconrad wrote:I wonder whether φιλία is the proper word here.
- φιλεῖν "to kiss", "to show affection" - 61 (approx.)
- φίλημα "kiss", "show of affection" - 36 (approx.)
- φίλος "friendly" / "friend" - 10 (approx.)
- φιλία "affectionate regard" - 1
I think that logically the φιλία is the abstract noun derived from φίλος, and φίλημα is nominal form derived from φιλεῖνcwconrad wrote:Would we say that Aquila and Priscilla are φίλοι?
One difficulty in dealing with this statement and the suggestions is making a reasonable guess as to what was meant by what was written in Greek. There are broadly-speaking three strategies;Stirling Bartholomew wrote:The following looks to me like well formed English translated into Greek literally.
Γινώσκομεν ὅτι ὁ Ἀκύλας φιλεῖ τὴν Πρίσκιλλαν. Τοῦτ' ἔστιν, γινώσκομεν
- word-for-word from another language (gloss-to-gloss),
- modelling a native speaker's passage with some reasonable level of change, or
- constructing sentences using abstracted structures and the requirements of different words.
- The choice of φιλεῖ (as I think Clay suggests) seems to be an attempt to render English "love" - a type 1 strategy.
- The SVO order of ὁ Ἀκύλας φιλεῖ τὴν Πρίσκιλλαν could have been modeled on English and be "accidently" correct, or modeled on something like John 5:20 Ὁ γὰρ πατὴρ φιλεῖ τὸν υἱόν, or have been from constructed from rules, so because it is not a mistake, it can't indicate anything. A question like, "Why is John 20:2 ὃν ἐφίλει ὁ Ἰησοῦς OVS while 5:20 was SVO?" might go some way to clarifying what happened in composition.
- The transitional phrase Τοῦτ' ἔστιν is used in some of the same ways that we use "i.e." in English, but not all.
- The most common way it is used is in Greek to expand on one aspect of an idea (as in, "I will be cooking in the late morning, τοῦτ’ ἔστιν the lunch for you to eat" - ) cf. Acts 19:4, Romans 10:6, 7, Philemon 12.
- another way is "He lives in 601, τοῦτ’ ἔστιν at the end of the corridor." or vice versa) cf. Romans 10:8, Hebrews 2:14, 7:5, 9:11, 10:20, 13:15, 1 Peter 3:20, or
- before a translation (Matthew 27:46, Acts 1:19) where one phrase is put into the same place in another language. Where it seems to say, "in other words" as in Hebrews 11:16 κρείττονος ... τοῦτ’ ἔστιν, ἐπουρανίου "better, in actual fact heavenly" still here more information, or
- a better understanding is given, cf. Mark 7:2, Romans 7:18, 9:7-8.
- There is a degree of variance as to whether the second or third person is used for framing statements (γινώσκομεν vs. γινώσκετε). It is unclear whether the composer's English habit or an awareness of Greek conventions was brought to bear in the composition.
- γινώσκομεν τὴν φιλίαν τινός may imply that we have personally experienced it and now know it, in a way that the distance of a ὅτι. LSJ (γιγνώσκω) notes "οἶδα know by reflection, γιγνώσκω, = know by observation". The abstract noun φιλία seems to be what is known by reflection after observation. That suggests that using γινώσκομεν twice was a gloss-for-gloss translation of the English.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
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Re: Rank shifting
Trying to steer the conversation back to my question about rank shifting, I notice that LSJ says about φιλία
(3) τὴν φιλίαν (τὴν) τοῦ Ἀκύλα [εἰς, πρὸς] τὴν Πρίσκιλλαν.
(3a) τὴν φιλίαν τὴν τοῦ Ἀκύλα εἰς τὴν Πρίσκιλλαν.
(3b) τὴν φιλίαν τὴν τοῦ Ἀκύλα πρὸς τὴν Πρίσκιλλαν.
(3c) τὴν φιλίαν τοῦ Ἀκύλα εἰς τὴν Πρίσκιλλαν.
(3d) τὴν φιλίαν τοῦ Ἀκύλα πρὸς τὴν Πρίσκιλλαν.
So the question was not whether all (3a)-(3d) are possible, but which among them.
As to the question of whether they were φίλοι, I do not presume to have much evidence, but in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I would think rather φίλοι than ἐχθροί. However, this may be outside of the scope for b-greek.![Smile :-)](./images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
As for using γινώσκομεν twice, I am not sure why it would be a mistake. If you paraphrase a sentence, you are not necessarily making a reflection on another sentence. Remember that the context is a grammatical question about language, not a story of two people and our inferences about them. So, it seems better to repeat the word to lessen the irrelevant differences between the sentences to focus on the relevant differences for the question.
ὄ ἐστιν seems good to me.
The purpose of the permutations was just to make the question shorter. For example my number (3) can be written outthe person is commonly expressed by πρός τινα...less freq. εἰς ἀλλήλους...also by object. gen.
(3) τὴν φιλίαν (τὴν) τοῦ Ἀκύλα [εἰς, πρὸς] τὴν Πρίσκιλλαν.
(3a) τὴν φιλίαν τὴν τοῦ Ἀκύλα εἰς τὴν Πρίσκιλλαν.
(3b) τὴν φιλίαν τὴν τοῦ Ἀκύλα πρὸς τὴν Πρίσκιλλαν.
(3c) τὴν φιλίαν τοῦ Ἀκύλα εἰς τὴν Πρίσκιλλαν.
(3d) τὴν φιλίαν τοῦ Ἀκύλα πρὸς τὴν Πρίσκιλλαν.
So the question was not whether all (3a)-(3d) are possible, but which among them.
As to the question of whether they were φίλοι, I do not presume to have much evidence, but in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I would think rather φίλοι than ἐχθροί. However, this may be outside of the scope for b-greek.
![Smile :-)](./images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
As for using γινώσκομεν twice, I am not sure why it would be a mistake. If you paraphrase a sentence, you are not necessarily making a reflection on another sentence. Remember that the context is a grammatical question about language, not a story of two people and our inferences about them. So, it seems better to repeat the word to lessen the irrelevant differences between the sentences to focus on the relevant differences for the question.
ὄ ἐστιν seems good to me.
Kimmo Huovila
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Re: Rank shifting
How would a writer disambiguate between the subjective and objective genitives in ἡ φιλία τοῦ Ἀκύλα? ἡ φιλία ἣν ἔχει ὁ Ἀκύλας and ἡ φιλία πρὸς τὸν Ἀκύλαν?
Would 1 John 4:16 support using ἐν to indicate the object or is it irrelevant?
I looked at a few grammars on rank shifting and found nothing. Is this a neglected topic of Greek grammar?
Would 1 John 4:16 support using ἐν to indicate the object or is it irrelevant?
I looked at a few grammars on rank shifting and found nothing. Is this a neglected topic of Greek grammar?
Kimmo Huovila
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Re: Rank shifting
KimmoHuovila wrote:Which of the following makes for a good continuation and which are not good Greek?
I thought the original question was about "good Greek", and you were attempting some sort of variable composition. - Good Greek vs. bad continuation(s).KimmoHuovila wrote:Trying to steer the conversation back to my question about rank shifting
Could you please re-state / rephrase your question?
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)