Telicity of ἐλθεῖν (ἕρχομαι)?

[Stephen Hughes]

Who's got the better of the argument?

Were you looking for point by points and a discussion to follow, or just an impressionistic answer?

[MAubrey]

Just to clarify:

Is Espinsosa concluding that ἐλθεῖν is inherently telic?

Or that ἐλθεῖν can be used in telic contexts?

[MAubrey]

Just to clarify:

Is Espinsosa concluding that ἐλθεῖν is inherently telic?

Or that ἐλθεῖν can be used in telic contexts?

I would say the former is incontrovertibly false.

[Stephen Carlson]

Just to clarify:

Is Espinsosa concluding that ἐλθεῖν is inherently telic?

Or that ἐλθεῖν can be used in telic contexts?

"Inherently telic" is not a collocation in Espinosa's paper, so to answer this kind of question, we'd have to figure what you and Espinsosa mean by "inherently" and "telic" and see if and how they match up. For example, Espinosa talks about ἐλθεῖν being "lexically telic" and "inherently deictic" but are those the same as or different from your "inherently telic"?

[MAubrey]

Espinosa talks about ἐλθεῖν being "lexically telic" and "inherently deictic" but are those the same as or different from your "inherently telic"?

Well, he bases his 'lexical telicity' on the basis that the verb 'denotes motion toward the deictic center', so they seem the same to me. Either way, I'm not sure that's a very good inference for him to make.

[Stephen Carlson]

Espinosa talks about ἐλθεῖν being "lexically telic" and "inherently deictic" but are those the same as or different from your "inherently telic"?

Well, he bases his 'lexical telicity' on the basis that the verb 'denotes motion toward the deictic center', so they seem the same to me. Either way, I'm not sure that's a very good inference for him to make.

And what's your objection to it? The general concept? Or, as as applied to ἐλθεῖν?

[cwconrad]

The Greek that is being discussed in those theses is coming up in some places in English letters! I'm finding that difficult to read and distracting.

That's what happens when writers don't use Unicode fonts.

Does my computer need something else to be done to it to display the Greek words properly in the Greek alphabet?

Well, actually, looking at it again more closely, it seems to be intentional...

phulassō ... diaphulassō

I think that it is intentional. That's what Linguists do when they're talking about Greek to other Linguists, rather than to those who regularly work in Greek.

[cwconrad]

Espinosa talks about ἐλθεῖν being "lexically telic" and "inherently deictic" but are those the same as or different from your "inherently telic"?

Well, he bases his 'lexical telicity' on the basis that the verb 'denotes motion toward the deictic center', so they seem the same to me. Either way, I'm not sure that's a very good inference for him to make.

Ain't Linguistic lexicology wunnerful? Sometimes I wunner if it's a communicable disease. (Sorry about that, but I couldn't help it.)

[Stephen Carlson]

Well, he bases his 'lexical telicity' on the basis that the verb 'denotes motion toward the deictic center', so they seem the same to me. Either way, I'm not sure that's a very good inference for him to make.

I should add that "motion toward" a destination does not define a telic event, but an atelic activity. I think Espinosa meant "motion to," which would be telic. It is an error on his part to say "toward."

[MAubrey]

Well, he bases his 'lexical telicity' on the basis that the verb 'denotes motion toward the deictic center', so they seem the same to me. Either way, I'm not sure that's a very good inference for him to make.

I should add that "motion toward" a destination does not define a telic event, but an atelic activity. I think Espinosa meant "motion to," which would be telic. It is an error on his part to say "toward."

Agreed, if the verb is telic, then that would be the bettter characterization.

But clauses like: δόξα θεοῦ Ισραηλ ἤρχετο κατὰ τὴν ὁδὸν (Ezekiel 43:2) or ἦλθεν γὰρ Ισραηλ ὁδὸν Αθαριν (Numbers 21:1) tell me that the verb isn't telic. I also think his analysis of Matt 15:29 is getting awfully close to question begging.