ἐπὶ + G, D, or A?

[D Ryan Lowe]

Does anyone know of a good resource that distinguishes the uses of ἐπὶ with the genitive, dative, and accusative case? There are frequent uses of all of them, but I've checked Wallace's Grammar and Murray Harris' work on prepositions, and neither of them draw much of any sort of distinctions between the cases, even generally.

[cwconrad]

Does anyone know of a good resource that distinguishes the uses of ἐπὶ with the genitive, dative, and accusative case? There are frequent uses of all of them, but I've checked Wallace's Grammar and Murray Harris' work on prepositions, and neither of them draw much of any sort of distinctions between the cases, even generally.

Personally I think that GGBB on the cases is at best confusing and at worst obfuscating -- it's intended to help you translate into English rather than really understand the Greek construction. You really ought to start such searches with Smyth; regarding usage of ἐπὶ with genitive, dative, and accusative, see Smyth §1689.

I might add a comment here. Some will tell you that you should learn your cases of nouns, pronouns, and adjectives without consideration of older cases (e.g. "eight-case system." I personally think that some sense of the history of the Greek cases helps to do so nonetheless with regard to prepositions. Constructions of ἐπὶ with the genitive most commonly involve the "partitive" genitive and indicate the spatial surface or the temporal range within which the predication is offered; constructions of ἐπὶ with the dative most commonly involve the "locative" dative and indicate the point in space or time at which the predication is offered; constructions of ἐπὶ with the accusative most commonly involve the notion of extent or limit of the predication offered. In other words, given that the fundamental sense of ἐπὶ is "on", "upon", or "onto", it helps to think of the kinds of relationships the distinct cases commonly indicate with reference to directional prepositions.

[D Ryan Lowe]

Constructions of ἐπὶ with the genitive most commonly involve the "partitive" genitive and indicate the spatial surface or the temporal range within which the predication is offered; constructions of ἐπὶ with the dative most commonly involve the "locative" dative and indicate the point in space or time at which the predication is offered; constructions of ἐπὶ with the accusative most commonly involve the notion of extent or limit of the predication offered. In other words, given that the fundamental sense of ἐπὶ is "on", "upon", or "onto", it helps to think of the kinds of relationships the distinct cases commonly indicate with reference to directional prepositions.

You wrote:
ἐπὶ + genitive => "partitive" genitive => spatial surface or the temporal range within which the predication is offered
ἐπὶ + dative => "locative" dative => point in space or time at which the predication is offered
ἐπὶ + accusative => the notion of extent or limit of the predication offered

Could you give examples of ἐπὶ with each of the three cases to illustrate your points? I'm lost in the terminology and don't quite follow the concept.

[David Lim]

Constructions of ἐπὶ with the genitive most commonly involve the "partitive" genitive and indicate the spatial surface or the temporal range within which the predication is offered; constructions of ἐπὶ with the dative most commonly involve the "locative" dative and indicate the point in space or time at which the predication is offered; constructions of ἐπὶ with the accusative most commonly involve the notion of extent or limit of the predication offered. In other words, given that the fundamental sense of ἐπὶ is "on", "upon", or "onto", it helps to think of the kinds of relationships the distinct cases commonly indicate with reference to directional prepositions.

You wrote:
ἐπὶ + genitive => "partitive" genitive => spatial surface or the temporal range within which the predication is offered
ἐπὶ + dative => "locative" dative => point in space or time at which the predication is offered
ἐπὶ + accusative => the notion of extent or limit of the predication offered

Could you give examples of ἐπὶ with each of the three cases to illustrate your points? I'm lost in the terminology and don't quite follow the concept.

Ryan, last year I asked a very similar question in http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... =12&t=1379, and on the second page I provided a table for some instances based on my own judgement, which you may or may not find helpful in looking for the cases you want and other rarer cases. I didn't claim to cover all semantic domains either, except what I found in Matthew and Mark. I do have a larger table with more instances but I wasn't sure that anyone would be interested in it anyway. Of course, I would be very interested in anyone's answers to my questions there if they don't mind reviving that dead thread. Carl, are your explanations for the general case or would they be able to account for the sizable number of case discrepancies between parallel verses? I'm reminded of the English "different from", "different than" and "different to".

[cwconrad]

Constructions of ἐπὶ with the genitive most commonly involve the "partitive" genitive and indicate the spatial surface or the temporal range within which the predication is offered; constructions of ἐπὶ with the dative most commonly involve the "locative" dative and indicate the point in space or time at which the predication is offered; constructions of ἐπὶ with the accusative most commonly involve the notion of extent or limit of the predication offered. In other words, given that the fundamental sense of ἐπὶ is "on", "upon", or "onto", it helps to think of the kinds of relationships the distinct cases commonly indicate with reference to directional prepositions.

You wrote:
ἐπὶ + genitive => "partitive" genitive => spatial surface or the temporal range within which the predication is offered
ἐπὶ + dative => "locative" dative => point in space or time at which the predication is offered
ἐπὶ + accusative => the notion of extent or limit of the predication offered

Could you give examples of ἐπὶ with each of the three cases to illustrate your points? I'm lost in the terminology and don't quite follow the concept.

.... Carl, are your explanations for the general case or would they be able to account for the sizable number of case discrepancies between parallel verses? I'm reminded of the English "different from", "different than" and "different to".

My "explanatons" are more useful, I think, for earlier Greek than for Hellenistic Koine. Upon reading carefully through the BDAG article on ἐπί, I see just how much earlier distinctions of usage have been "smoothed out" or "made to overlap" in later usage. I haven't really studied the matter, but my impression is that the accusative is being used more for linkages that were earlier distinguished by usage of genitive or dative forms.

With regard to "different from" and "different than" and "different to" I am conscious of my age; I grew up using "different from" and find the other expressions used as commonly or more so than "different from." My ears are offended (not my ears, of course, but you know what I mean).

[David Lim]

.... Carl, are your explanations for the general case or would they be able to account for the sizable number of case discrepancies between parallel verses? I'm reminded of the English "different from", "different than" and "different to".

My "explanatons" are more useful, I think, for earlier Greek than for Hellenistic Koine. Upon reading carefully through the BDAG article on ἐπί, I see just how much earlier distinctions of usage have been "smoothed out" or "made to overlap" in later usage. I haven't really studied the matter, but my impression is that the accusative is being used more for linkages that were earlier distinguished by usage of genitive or dative forms.

With regard to "different from" and "different than" and "different to" I am conscious of my age; I grew up using "different from" and find the other expressions used as commonly or more so than "different from." My ears are offended (not my ears, of course, but you know what I mean).

I see, thanks! Incidentally, where I live, we all still use "different from".

[D Ryan Lowe]

Ryan, last year I asked a very similar question in http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... =12&t=1379, and on the second page I provided a table for some instances based on my own judgement, which you may or may not find helpful in looking for the cases you want and other rarer cases. I didn't claim to cover all semantic domains either, except what I found in Matthew and Mark. I do have a larger table with more instances but I wasn't sure that anyone would be interested in it anyway. Of course, I would be very interested in anyone's answers to my questions there if they don't mind reviving that dead thread. Carl, are your explanations for the general case or would they be able to account for the sizable number of case discrepancies between parallel verses? I'm reminded of the English "different from", "different than" and "different to".

Thanks, David. I've been looking at a lot of data for επι lately, and I'll put some of my thoughts there.

I've encountered "different from" and "different than" used interchangeably such that I don't even notice the "difference," but I don't hear "different to."

[Stephen Carlson]

I've encountered "different from" and "different than" used interchangeably such that I don't even notice the "difference," but I don't hear "different to."

My sense is that "different from" is standard, "different than" is an Americanism, and "different to" is a Briticism, all of varying degrees of acceptability, Too bad we aren't as aware of Koine regionalisms.