Good info, Ted. Thanks. More comments below in response. Would like to
hear more about using bacterial teas to control pathogens.
> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:49:14 -0800
> From: "Ted Peterson" <ted.peterson_at_tcsn.net>
> Subject: Re: Re: Some people!
>
> It is my understanding that anyone who states that pathogenic bacteria are
"removed" by oxidation is misstating a basic fact of microbiology. Bacteria
(including e coli) don't really die unless they are digested (eaten by other
bacteria which can occur under certain conditions). Fecal coloforms do not
grow (multiply) in water. Add O2 and you make a very unattractive
environment for them. They do go to "sleep" or become inactive if they do
not have beneficial conditions but they do not grow in competition with
aerobes. Fecal coloforms require anaerobic conditions to grow. <
I trust you mean "oxygenation" not oxidation...:-) My understanding is this
is mostly true except that some ecoli's are facultative anaerobes that Doc E
has found can grow in ct when oxygen falls below 2ppm, which to me doesn't
necessarily mean they will grow - depends on concentration and what other
organisms are present and active. And even then, when oxygen recovers there
is a high probability of their being consumed by other organisms. Please
correct if that's not right, Doc. I know you've provided mucho info on the
subject and even published something, and that there was a recent
presentation on some experiments you did earlier this year? Are these on
SFI website? I must confess that even though I use manure vermi, I don't
worry that much about it, so I haven't pulled it all together...(Chris?
Carole?)... preferring to accept that healthy soil and plant conditions
won't support pathogen emergence or growth, especially anaerobic ones... And
that manure is ok, properly handled, especially from healthy animals:-).
> Does using compost containing animal and human fecal coloforms in the
brewing process transfer the E. Coli during the brewing and subsequent
distribution process? Yes. However, there are not a lot of them to begin
with in most compost because the composting process basically deemphasizes
anerobes over functional aerobes. <
It's been recommended that one way of avoiding ecoli nearly completely is to
use only plant composts. Also, Doc E has found that citric acids (and
couple others?) in small quantities can suppress ecoli growth in teas, and I
assume it works on other pathogens, as well.
> Now, Earth-Wise has composted human biosolids and noticed the pathogen
regrowth when water was added to composted biosolids that were roughly
30-40% moisture by volume. The composting process was finished and water
was added. In other words, the compost tested N.D. for pathogens but spiked
when H20 was added. It is to be noted that the spike was still below EPA
standards and below Canadian (British Columbia) standards for pathogens but
it was still a spike. We successfully controlled these spikes by the
application of bacterial compost tea. Subsequent testing showed the spikes
in pathogen growth could be controlled by compost tea. <
This info is new and real interesting - tea itself as yet another potential
way to control pathogens? I'd like to hear more, as I said.
Your point about EPA and Canadian "standards" for pathogens is well-taken...
If I recall well, USDA also has standards for how much ecoli and other
pathogens can be in meat products - meaning some are allowed, which
unfortunately doesn't appear to be acceptable to them in compost tea. I've
not heard them say that but it seems to be at the core of the arguments they
are making on ct and manures. Clever choice of ruses, eh - pick organisms
that WILL be in manures and insist NONE can be in tea... also insist any
compost tea is "raw manure," which is their position today... USDA/NOP is
not being realistic with compost tea (duh!) even according to their own
(other) regulations. Grrr...
> Back to the basic question: Does aerated compost tea grow pathogens?
No. Are pathogens present in compost tea? Yes if they are in the compost.
Are E. Coli present in all soil? Yes, according to microbiologists but they
do not grow unless an anaerobic envirnoment is created for them and they
have food. <
Precisely, and I can imagine most all other pathogens can be in soil, as
well, and we can control for them both in teas and in using teas, I believe,
and with good soil care. Just another example of the lack of realism at
USDA... these things are naturally omnipresent and can be managed. (e.g.,
If you want to try and fry your kids, put a heavily dosed pathogen tea on
your lettuce just before harvest, then don't wash it, just eat it... I
wonder if Brinton is stupid enough to do this?)
> It basically comes down to environment. Let your tea get anaerobic -- for
example, letting it sit to promote fungal growth -- pathogens will multiply.
Use it within 17-24 hours and your chances of spreading pathogens are
directly propotional to the amount in your compost. <
Agree on letting tea go anaerobic, possibly, but it still depends on what
other organisms are present and active, hmm? Historically, teas steeped for
weeks have apparently been beneficial. I don't agree but I need Doc's help
to make the argument on proportional risk. There seem to be at least two
ways to reduce pathogens in ACT. One is air volume/nutrient combinations
that insure beneficial organisms will prevail over pathogens (i.e., consume
them) and the other is citric or other acid additions (which presumably
either kill or stunt them or enable other organisms to consume them?). So
it seems to me the chance of spreading pathogens in tea is not necessarily
directly proportional to amounts in compost - that some reduction is
possible. Dunno but seems feasible. Composting itself can control for
pathogens, too, I think, and especially vermicomposting - which is, btw,
like compost teas, also not officially acceptable per USNOP's "Final Rule."
Check it out if you don't believe me... not 205.203 or any other section
includes any vermicomposts - the wink-wink-nod-nod to "plant" vermi in the
intro is not part of the standards, per se. Happy to be corrected but
believe I'm right, sadly. How's that for incredibly dumb?
Correction: US House Organic Caucus list was posted 7/4/03, not 02 (sorry
for typo, slightly impossible since it was formed 4/03, eh?:). "Politely"
peppering the folks I suggested in prior message should help compost tea
progress at USNOP... We can all ask what's happening, anyway, hmm?
Kirk L
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Received on Thu Nov 13 2003 - 18:04:07 EST