[compost_tea] Final Response to HIYIELD_1

From: chris reid <reidchris_at_earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:38:52 -0500

--- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "hi_yield1" <hi_yield1_at_y...> wrote:
> Chris,
> I got the prices from SFI US price list. If you were to do both soil
> compost and tea it would add up to well over 600 dollars that would
> also include the Interpretation/Consulting fee.

REPLY: We're making progress. You're beginning to get somewhat factual.
And you didn't apologize for mis-stating the facts, just got more accurate
about how you came to the $600 number. So, let's use facts again and take a
different approach. Let's tell Elaine Ingham that we're interested in
compost tea, and in understanding whether our soil could benefit from tea
and if so, we also want to figure out if we're making good tea. Let's tell
her that we'd like to know the most cost effective way for us, as homeowners
and not major ag businesses, to get a handle on this -- could we do less
tests, or certain tests? could we make use of the consulting option at $25
per quarter hour? How would she advise we get started?

That seems like a good, fact based, question that might turn up some useful
information. If she says "You need to spend $600 to even begin having a
good look at what's going on," then we can decide whether our 10 x 10 front
yard is really an appropriate place to use compost tea. Companies make
these sorts of decisions about investments all the time. Consumers make
these decisions when they buy under counter refrigerators or chest freezers.
If I complained that a chest freezer wouldn't fit in my dorm room and I only
ate about one 6-pack of ice cream bars a week, would you be sympathetic?
Shame on me for not doing my homework. Does it make the manufacturer a bad
manufacturer? Only if he gave out flyers in my dorm suggesting that I
needed a chest freezer and not an undercounter fridge with a little freezer
that would hold some ice cubes and a 6 pack of Klondike bars. Thinking
carefully about the appropriate audience for a product is important for
manufacturers to do, or the product will fail. It's important for consumers
to do, or the product will be at the next tag sale.

HIYIELD: That's if your tea samples reach the lab soon enough to get a
valid reading.

REPLY: Okay, can we stick with the facts here? How long does it take to get
your samples to a lab in Oregon using Alaska Air or Fed Ex? Let's ask
Elaine what the time frame is between sample extraction and sample arrival
for a sample to yield useful test results. And, I think Bruce Elliot
suggested using some kind of cool pak or ice bag around the tea samples. Is
this a good idea for people in hot areas or far from a lab? this is very
good information for us to put in the best practices document, because it
will support people in having a good experience right from the start.

HIYIELD: And no I'm not a micro-biologist just like the many other members
of this group.Yes there is alot I do not understand about the soil food web.
But
after many many years of gardening I know what has and hasn't worked for me.

REPLY: We're peaceful non-microbiologists here. No one begrudges you your
experience and knowledge of what has worked and not worked.

HIYIELD: If you can't grow it ( culture it) then how can you possibly fully
understand it?? Yes I'm a bit of a skeptic but I'm also entitled
> to my opinion. Though it may not be a popular one at times.

REPLY: First, you are entitled to your opinion, but that's not what we're
here for. This is not the editorial page of your local newspaper so please
keep your opinions out of here and send your opinions there. If you read
the purpose of the group, it's decidedly NOT about people's opinions. It's
not for smarmy mash notes from dewy-eyed "I love Popeye" dazed people to
overstate the benefits of compost tea, and it's not for people like you to
blabber on about how it doesn't work. It's about forwarding the fact-based
knowledge about compost tea. So what's unpopular is that you continue to
voice opinions based on a very poor (from what I've seen) attention to facts
and detail. Out of one side of your mouth you're badmouthing compost tea
for not being a science with all the facts, and out of the other you're
quoting incorrect test prices and making vague statements about people who
used "compost tea" and put the brewer in their garage because "it doesn't
work". Are you a guy on a mission who won't let facts stand in the way of
his opinion? Kind of seems that way. People on missions to badmouth
compost tea and people on missions to oversell compost tea are of the same
stripe. Not useful.


HIYIELD: If you can't grow it, then how can you understand it?

REPLY: Check the archives and research this question. It's been addressed
ad nauseum many times before. I actually think you don't care about the
answer, you just want to make arguments for the sake of making arguments.


HIYIELD: Because of the line of business I'm in I have talked to many first
time tea makers and after only one season most are giving it up. They say
the
>results were not worth the time the money and the effort they had to put
into it. People making (posting) claims of total disease and bug suppression
and growing world record giant veggies all because of their CT is only
hurting the cause!! Beware of setting the bar to high!! Be a little more
realistic in your approach. I have heard people refer to CT as cult
gardening. NOT GOOD!! Take care hi-yield.

REPLY: Anyone with an unused brewer in their garage can do the following:
1) come on line and offer it for sale on a Sunday, when ads are allowed on
this list. Might as well make a little extra money to pay for their
chemical fertilizers and pesticides, and there are plenty of people here who
would jump at the chance to get a good price on a WELL TESTED machine. 2)
come on line here and talk about the facts of what they wanted to do, what
they did, and what their results were or were not. IT will help forward
compost tea science to hear from people and either help them figure out what
likely didn't work or learn the ways in which compost tea is not effective.

What is not moving tea forward is for you to engage in half-truths and vague
generalizations as though they somehow supported your belief system about
compost tea. I am clear that you are not clear, that your anecdotes are
fuzzy, not factually fleshed out, and not presented as though you really
want to get to the bottom of this and understand it, but rather presented so
you can argue the conclusions you've already come to. So now I've spent
more a tremendous, tremendous time and effort trying to address someone who
is not saying thank you for making me clearer, but who is mainly holding on
tight to his preconceived notions.

So I am promising you and myself that I will not address any more vague and
opinionated posts in the half light of anonymity. I hope that some of this
exchange has proved useful to you and to others on the list who can see that
frequently repeated nonfacts about compost tea can have as powerful an
impact on the future of compost tea as facts can.

Regards,

Chris Reid



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Received on Thu Nov 20 2003 - 12:46:09 EST

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