Re: [compost_tea] Water temps for brewing

From: Ted Peterson <ted.peterson_at_tcsn.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 12:48:14 -0800


  ----- Original Message -----
  From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
  To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 11:06 AM
  Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Water temps for brewing


  Hi Ted -

  Logical testing approach on your work. Good job. I am now going to answ=
er specific things that Ted mentioned, and do a little thought jog about th=
e purpose

  But please Ted, think fungi. You focus and concentrate on bacteria. Do =
you really need to be improving bacteria? Don't you have enough? Well, ma=
ybe you need a greater diversity, but don't exclude getting the fungi going=
 too.

>> Actually, I must have misstated my post. The whole purpose here is to=
 get fungi. The temperature is unimportant as I mentioned that I never bre=
w higher than about 5 d.F. above soil temp. The compost is the same.




    I have tried brewing at temps from 80 D.F. down to 55 D.F. and I have b=
een looking at the tea with a Spencer 1000x microscope. I then take soil s=
amples at different times and examine them the same way after dilution in d=
istilled water. I try to make sure the amounts of soil and soil depth are =
as similar as I can get them and I use the same microscope technique every =
time. I look to see if what I am transferring from the tea is "taking" in =
the places I apply it. Because of the limits of my microscope, I can't tel=
l types fo bacteria but can see bacterial fields and I can see if the same =
organisms transfer to the soil. This, of course, means before and after so=
il examination.



  You should be able to distinguish the different morphology of bacteria an=
d fungi in your samples.

>> I'm working on identifying those now. There's a lot of stuff to lear=
n.

   You should be able to distinguish protozoa and nematodes too.

>> Got 'em.

    If you use tap water, you have to make sure the water is not lysing cel=
ls as well.
>> I use distilled water. However, it is not pharmaceutical grade.



    From these results, I came to conclude that brewing closer to soil temp=
 gave me a greater assurance that I would be promoting biology that was mor=
e in line with the temperature rather than brewing for one temperature and =
hoping I was getting the correct microbes for the soil.

  Higher numbers of bacteria are nice, but is it what we are really looking=
 for?

>> I am looking through the whole cycle. I look for what is in my tea an=
d see if it is replicating in my soil. That means fungi (look just like th=
e textbooks show) protoza and bacterial/fungal eating nematodes.

  By the way, I have been experimenting with the aerobe/anaerobe balance an=
d the

    growth of protoza. I am getting results and will forward those when I =
have some repeatable trends. Your comment about Bacillus Licheniformis dur=
ing the mad cow discussions got me looking into ways to grow protoza and ba=
cterial/fungal eating nematodes within a brewing cycle of 48 to 72 hours. =
That meant that I had to rethink how I was brewing while still keeping the =
basic concept of ACT in place.



  Good idea on the protozoa. We do need to think about how to make the tea=
 brewing process better for them so they will reproduce. But they will onl=
y reproduce once, maximum, during a 24 hour tea brew. Have to have aerobic=
 conditions in order to keep the good guys alive and happy.

  Nematodes will not reproduce during the 24 tea brew. They won't even thi=
nk about reproducing while being whirled around in the tea. Nematodes need=
 solid surfaces to hold onto, and they need specific fungi, and sometimes s=
pecific microarthropods to consume in order to go into reproduction. Not l=
ikely to happen in the tea brew. So, the nematodes in your tea brew are th=
e ones you extract from your compost.


    That is one of the experiments I am involved with. I have four others =
that test my own understanding of the process and time lines for microbial =
growth. I'm basically trying to get to the Trophic Zone that contains Flag=
ellates, Ameoba, Paramecium and BacterialFungal eating nematodes, etc. So I=
 have brewers constantly going with different inputs. In one, I have an ex=
periment to produce actinomycetes I gathered up from the local decomposing =
tree detrius. (I take a lot of precautions here because research has shown =
me that certain strains of these things can be quite toxic to humans.) I h=
ave trained my son, a ten-year-old home schooled intelectual monster in the=
 same microscope technique and logging method I use and he is starting to d=
o the sampling now.



  Your own built in lab tech! Send him to SFI for a little training, ok? =
 
>> Elaine, he's only ten! Maybe he could come and visit and play with yo=
ur kid(s) but I think SFI training may be just a little beyond him right no=
w. Give it 6 months or so.



    I have been looking at bacterial growth, bacterial enzymes and the cult=
ivation of higher order bacteria/fungi through enzymes produced by the crit=
ters. I have already grown protoza and nematodes in brewers by using hay m=
ixed with compost and molasses and blood meal with some other organic input=
s.

    I think there are a couple of things you need to consider along with te=
mperature, so we don't put too much emphasis on temperature alone.
>> There are a lot of things in addition to temperature. However, your q=
uery was directed to the temp. problem. I added the rest so readers could =
see the process. But it would take me too long to list everything. Beside=
s, right now I am only interested in trends. Once I see a consistent trend=
, I can focus on reasons behind it to see if it can be controlled. Compost=
 diversity is something that can be controlled to a degree. Getting divers=
ity in a brewer from non-diverse compost is something that cannot be contro=
lled. I am always open to changing or improving my processes to make a bet=
ter product.

  A clear statement of what was being looked for and why the experiemnt was=
 done might be a good idea.

>> Yes, state a hypothesis, define your parameters and test that conclusi=
ons actually support your position. I will post that way in the future.


    I wasn't attacking you, Ted, I was just asking for more information. D=
idn't mean to make you feel defensive!

>> Darn and I was looking to build up a nice resentment and get a chip on=
 my shoulder and flame people and tell the world how right I am in the face=
 of correct knowledge.
  Ted Peterson
  Earth-Wise/Spirit of the Earth






Received on Sun Jan 18 2004 - 19:07:38 EST

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