Re: [SPAM] [compost_tea] Digest Number 948

From: Jerry Cunningham <Jerry.Cunningham_at_CoyoteCreekFarm.org>
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 09:21:33 -0600 (Central Standard Time)

I have only written once before. I was discouraged from doing so again by
the
strident tone of all the "experts" - I really appreciate the admonishment b=
y
Jeff
of those who choose to write in attack mode, that seems so unnecessary
except to
bolster someones ego.

This newsletter started off with a very patient, and basic answer from
Elaine to Butch,
that was very reassuring. I just hope the others will follow suit and keep
in check their
need for ad hominem attacks. This will allow the other 99% of us to feel
more comfortable
in participating in this group discussion.

Well, I have 250 gallons brewing right now, and will be putting it on my
pasture tomorrow,
I am no expert, but I do believe in ACT!

Here is to a great 05 to each of you, I am proud to be a part of this new
paradigm.

Jerry (Jeremiah) Cunningham
Coyote Creek Farm



 
  
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
Date: 01/03/05 02:44:17
To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SPAM] [compost_tea] Digest Number 948
 
There are 20 messages in this issue.
 
Topics in this digest:
 
      1. Re: basic questions
           From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
      2. Texas Conference On Organic Production Systems
           From: "Steve Bridges" <steve_at_texasgrown.com>
      3. Re: Bottled tea
           From: Robert Norsen <bnbrew_at_yahoo.com>
      4. Re: Greenhouse
           From: "Tom Jaszewski" <tom_at_livesoil.com>
      5. Re: Two Decisions
           From: "Tom Jaszewski" <tom_at_livesoil.com>
      6. Re: Two Decisions
           From: Jeff Lowenfels <jeff_at_gardener.com>
      7. Re: basic questions
           From: "Ted Peterson" <ted.peterson_at_tcsn.net>
      8. Re: basic questions
           From: "Perry Clutts" <addy_at_arczip.com>
      9. Re: basic questions
           From: Robert Norsen <bnbrew_at_yahoo.com>
     10. fungal hyphae
           From: "Titel Ryzhomer" <thegoodjob_at_hotmail.com>
     11. Re: fungal hyphae
           From: "Ted Peterson" <ted.peterson_at_tcsn.net>
     12. Re: non-aerated teas?
           From: "Ted Peterson" <ted.peterson_at_tcsn.net>
     13. Re: fungal hyphae
           From: Jeff Lowenfels <jeff_at_gardener.com>
     14. Re: fungal hyphae
           From: "Titel Ryzhomer" <thegoodjob_at_hotmail.com>
     15. Mystery Organic Spray
           From: "Scott Alexander" <daylily_at_bigpond.com>
     16. Engineering Tools Utility
           From: "Thomas Jaszewski" <tom_at_livesoil.com>
     17. Engineering Tools Utility
           From: "Thomas Jaszewski" <tom_at_livesoil.com>
     18. Re: fungal hyphae
           From: "Scott Alexander" <daylily_at_bigpond.com>
     19. Re: basic questions
           From: "Scott Alexander" <daylily_at_bigpond.com>
     20. Re: Re: fungal hyphae
           From: "Ted Peterson" <ted.peterson_at_tcsn.net>
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 1
   Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 10:37:58 -0500
   From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
Subject: Re: basic questions
 
Hi Butch -
 
Consider natural ecosystems in order to answer your question. No one adds
anything to those systems, but nature builds soil from sterile (all of the
planet's surface was sterile before life started), to old growth forest, th=
e
richest soil on the planet. Consider all of the successional stages
in-between, where soil is being built.
 
Nature does not require any additions from outside the system in order to
build soil. Everything can come from within.
 
What scale are we talking about, however. Nature does not work on the scal=
e
of a single agricultural field. Nature works on the scale of a watershed,
at the very least. The top of the mountain is going to take a great deal
longer to become old growth soil than the riverbank.
 
But, all the soil within that watershed was once dirt (sterile, or lacking
adequate life to sustain plant growth). That soil was built, by adding
biology to do the work.
 
The main work was, first, establishing the microorganisms, species by
species, to establish nutrient cycling, nutrient retention, and build the
ciomplex set of food resources within the soil so succession could occur.=

 
Photosynthetic organisms are part of the system, they fix sunlight energy
into food for everyone else. But long before plants arrive, photosynthetic
bacteria, algae, etc fix energy and provide food for the microbes in the
soil to do their soil-building.
 
Plants require the right set of organisms to be already present in the soil
to convert nutrients the plants require into the forms that the plant has t=
o
have. Plants can't do that on their own.
 
As you go through succession, plant species shift from one stage to the nex=
t
based on the microorganisms in the soil (which required the previous stage
of successional processes to be occuring, which required the right set of
microbes, which required the previous sets of foods which means the previou=
s
set of plants..... and so on). As foods change, and the microbes change,
the rate and timing of nutrient release, and the dominant form of nutrients
available change, then plant species shift.
 
As you go through the entire course of sucession, the shift in the microbia=
l
world belowground is from one completely bacterial, to more, and more, and
more fungal, until old growth forest soils are 1000 times more fungal than
bacterial. You want shrubs, then get the foods (plant debris) and the
microbes (compost as inoculum) right for shrubs to be selected.
 
You want to build your soil? You need to put in the right foods (plant
debris, but not just any old plant debris, you need to make it plant debris
that will provide the right foods for the right microbes), and shift the
organisms present to those that will build the stage of succession to what
you want.
 
Understanding WHICH species of bacteria and fungi are present at each stage
is the next step of scientitific understanding that has to occur, and there
are methodology problems we have yet to solve to be able to understand and
measure that microbial diversity. But we will do this.
 
So when you ask if organic debris has to be present, most of us don't regar=
d
that as a question.
 
Organic matter in the soil is required.
 
To feed the microbes in the soil.
 
Microbes make their own organic debris, and thus build soil all on their ow=
n
 without higher plants. Not a productive soil from a human point of view,
but soil nonetheless.
 
The plants which can grow in poor soil are limited to mainly what we would
call weeds. But weeds are important in adding in more foods, and thus
building more organic matter in the soil, allowing more and different kinds
of microbes to grow.
 
As nutrient cycling changes, different plants can now germinate and grow.
We are at the next stage of succession. Now, with the new foods appearing,
new organisms can grow, alter nutrient retention and cycling in the soil,
build soil structure so the soil is, eventually, more suited to the plants
of the next stage of succession. And so on, and on, and on, until you reac=
h
old growth conifer forest.
 
All evidence on this planet points to conifer forests as being the "climax"
community.
 
But wait, not every bit of this planet is old growth forest. Hasn't
successsion been going on long enough that every place should be old growth=
?
 What about the tops of mountains?
 
Now you need to understand disturbance. When a strong disturbing force
occurs, be it tsunami, hurricane, fire, wind, bulldozers, flood, or chain
saw, succession is reversed. How far back does the system go? Well, how
much of the soil was destroyed? How much of the reserve of organic matter
was washed away? Or burned? Or moved to another system?
 
So, try thinking through this framework, and then maybe you will understand
why the rest of us don't really get your question. Of course organic debri=
s
will be present, plants are part of the system. We can alter soil building
processes by planting a different plant. Or shifting bacterial and fungal
ratios in the soil. Organic material is food for the microbes. What plant
was it that you wanted to grow? Feed the microbes needed to select for tha=
t
plant.
 
So, I probably haven't answered what you really wanted to know, but it's
because I don't really comprehend what you are asking, I think. The reason
I don't get it is because we're coming from two different paradigms, and we
have to modify the basic assumptions one or both of us are using before we
can ask meaningful questions of each other.
 
Time for a shift in the underlying assumptions.
 
Not saying whose underlying assumptions have to shift here, ok? Could be m=
e
 could be you.....nothing bad in shifting one's understanding of the world=
,
as long as we are both moving toward understanding the world in a more
realistic manner.
 
Only way to test our understandings of reality is to talk to each other, in
a way and manner that promote understanding.
 
So, Butch, I really appreciate your efforts, because while you are
frustrated that your question isn't being answered, you haven't descending
into name-calling, attacks on others, or unpleasantness.
 
Anyone else have some insight into Butch's question? Am I missing somethin=
g
obvious?
 
--
Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
SFI Corvallis, OR
SFI Port Jefferson, NY
SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia
SFI Cambridge, New Zealand
SFI Culiacan, Mexico
SFI Jerome, Idaho
SFI South Africa
http://www.soilfoodweb.com
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 2
   Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 11:28:02 -0600
   From: "Steve Bridges" <steve_at_texasgrown.com>
Subject: Texas Conference On Organic Production Systems
 
The Texas Organic Farmers and Gardeners Association is bringing Elaine back
to Texas to give a keynote address at the TCOOPS 2005. She'll also be
presenting a talk on Case Studies concerning success stories with compost
teas. For more read the article below and see the TOFGA website at www.tofg=
a
org
 
Elaine, as with almost all of our speakers, will be in attendance for the
whole conference. So if you've wanted to actually meet and talk with Dr.
Ingham this is a great opportunity!
 
Ya'll come!
Steve Bridges
 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
--
 
Texas Conference On Organic Production Systems
 
Building Basics - Examining Sustainable Farming Methods
Tried and True, to Visionary and New
 
January 26-28, 2005
 
www.tofga.org
 
Good day to all,
 
The 4th Annual Texas Conference On Organic Production Systems is happening
at the Radisson Resort on South Padre Island January 26-28, 2005. This year
s conference should be the best yet! Many of our attendees at last year's
conference told us it was the best conference they had ever attended. So, i=
n
anticipation of an increased attendance, we've moved the TCOOPS 2005 to the
beautiful Radisson Resort, which sits right on the beach on the gulf side o=
f
South Padre Island.
 
 
 
For those of you that attended last year's conference, you'll remember that
the time was tight between speakers. This year we've expanded our break and
lunch periods to allow for more leisure and visiting. But we've increased
our speaker lineup from last year's seventeen to twenty-three speakers! We
ve done this by going to a two-tract speaker system. Each day will feature =
a
keynote address, followed by the closing of the larger room to two spaces
and two tracts of speakers. We'll open the room back up for the last speake=
r
of the day to address the whole conference.
 
 
 
A highlight of last year's conference was the food we served our guests.
Again this year, TOFGA will be arranging for six meals to be prepared with
local and sustainable/organic food from our Texas farmers and ranchers. The
management of the Radisson is allowing us to bring in pastured poultry,
grass-fed beef, organic produce, fresh-squeezed Texas-Grown organic oranges
and grapefruit, raw milk cheeses, Texas-Raised Certified Organic shrimp fro=
m
West Texas, locally-produced mushrooms, etc. Five of these meals are
included in the cost of registration. The Banquet Dinner, on Friday evening
is an additional cost. All together, we'll serve two breakfasts, two lunche=
s
and two dinners. The food will be outstanding! Vegetarian entrées are als=
o
offered. These meals are included in the registration fee.
 
 
 
The conference also includes a Trade Show featuring thirty exhibitors'
booths with their products and services. These vendors and their exhibits
will offer another way to learn and keep up with the latest in sustainable
and organic agriculture production methods.
 
 
 
This year's conference will begin at 1pm on Wednesday with a Panel
Discussion of the research scientists doing the organic research for the
USDA's Kika de la Garza ARS. Four presentations will be given by the
research scientists with discussions following each presentation. New for
this year is the participation of the Organic Farming Research Foundation
(www.ofrf.org). Mark Lipson, Policy Program Coordinator and Marianne Simmon=
s
 Board Member, will be representing OFRF with a presentation on the state o=
f
organic research being done by the USDA around the nation. Wednesday evenin=
g
will bring the White Tent Social on the Beach. This welcome party will
include a BBQ meal prepared by the staff of the USDA.
 
 
 
Thursday opens with a keynote address by Dr. Elaine Ingham of the Soil
Foodweb Inc. After the keynote, we'll divide the big room into two rooms
featuring two-tracts of speakers. At the end of the day, the room will agai=
n
be opened up for a presentation by Dr. Ingham on successful Case Studies on
the use of compost teas. Thursday evening is the only meal that we'll not b=
e
serving our guests, allowing time to experience the island and it's dining
opportunities. Thursday evening will hold a special movie presentation of M=
y
Father's Garden, chronicling the experiences of two farmers that made the
transition to organic production. This is a "don't miss" movie if you've no=
t
seen it.
 
 
 
Friday morning we'll hear from Howard Garrett - The Dirt Doctor, our other
keynote addressor. We'll again close the room to two spaces for the
continuation of our two-tracts of speakers. For the last speaker of the day=
,
Daniel Imhoff, author of Farming With the Wild, will address the whole
conference attendance.
 
 
 
Friday evening brings our Texas Bounty Banquet Dinner. Malcolm Beck, founde=
r
of Garden-Ville of San Antonio and one of the founders of this conference,
will be our banquet speaker. Malcolm will be giving, for the first time, a
talk entitled Lesson's in Nature-My Life, highlighting his long life and
keen wisdom with stories right out of his book entitled Lesson's in Nature.
For the first time, we'll also be having an awards ceremony recognizing
those that are leading the way for a sustainable future. Other banquet
happenings are being planned.
 
 
 
We have a block of rooms reserved at a special conference rate until Januar=
y
7th. The special room rate will be available after that date but the room
availability will not be guaranteed. You may visit the Radisson Resort
website at http://www.radisson.com/southpadretx.
 
 
 
Please join us for this most important conference. The Texas Organic Farmer=
s
and Gardeners Association and our co-sponsors believe that this conference
will help define and facilitate future needs for the growth of sustainable
and organic agriculture in Texas. Texas has been slow to respond to the
growing opportunities to meet the demand for local and organic foods. This
conference offers insight, both in production and in marketing, to meet thi=
s
growing demand.
 
 
 
And don't forget that this conference is taking place on South Padre Island=
!
In addition to our top-notch conference, you'll also be able to stroll the
beaches, relax, and enjoy the island. For those that have to make excuses t=
o
get out of town, this should be a beautiful and informative working
vacation!
 
 
 
For complete conference information, please see our website at www.tofga.or=
g
 You may also call either Louise Placek or Steve Bridges at the addresses
and phone numbers below.
 
Steve Bridges
 
 
 
Louise Placek - Executive Director, TOFGA
 
(877) 326-5175 toll free
 
(512) 342-8526 local Austin
 
Email: louise_at_tofga.org
 
 
 
Steve Bridges - President, TOFGA
 
(512) 303-0816 office
 
Email: steve_at_tofga.org
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
[This message contained attachments]
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 3
   Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 09:40:28 -0800 (PST)
   From: Robert Norsen <bnbrew_at_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Bottled tea
 
One of your best messages, Tom, Bob
 
Tom Jaszewski <tom_at_livesoil.com> wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Yahoo! Groups Links
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
[This message contained attachments]
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 4
   Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 17:55:57 -0000
   From: "Tom Jaszewski" <tom_at_livesoil.com>
Subject: Re: Greenhouse
 
 
Beauveria bassiana a common but not gauranteed component of compost
extracts can control whitefly eggs, immature and adult whiteflies.
Paecilomyces fumosoroseus a fungal pathogen is also effective.
 
http://www.ppru.cornell.edu/insect_pathology/Pfumosoroseus.htm
 
"Insect mortality due to fungal infection has been ascribed to the
destruction of insect tissues, the release of toxins, and nutritional
deficiencies."
 
 
http://www.entomology.wisc.edu/mbcn/kyf403.html
 
A resent article in Compost Science and Utilization indicates maximum
biodiversity may be achieved in extracts by by using thermophilic
composts and vermicompost combined. (my interpretation)
 
 
 
 
--- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, Jeff Lowenfels <jeff_at_g...> wrote:
> I had white fly in my greenhouse before I started spraying with
ACT.
> Some plants were really infested. I use a straight, full strength
> spray. On occassion, I dip plants into a bucket filled with tea.
The
> white flies disappeared sometime during the first summer of
> application...I would say two months after i started. At that time
I
> applied once a week.
>
> Hope this helps. I didn't do a controlled experiment....couldn't
as I
> didn't expect it to happen. I am glad it did and though I am not
sure
> it was the tea, I assume it was...as that was the only different
> factor.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jeff L
> Plant a Row in your garden to feed the hungry. Join Plant A Row for
the
> Hungry. Ask me how. www.gwaa.org/Par/index.html
 
 
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 5
   Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 18:05:15 -0000
   From: "Tom Jaszewski" <tom_at_livesoil.com>
Subject: Re: Two Decisions
 
 
Very soon the ICTC, International Compost Tea Council, will have a
members only forum. All venues will be represented and the list will
be commercial free, moderated and representative of the current
research without bias.
 
http://www.intlctc.org/memberdues.htm
 
Here's a chance to support future conferences and research!
 
 
 
 
--- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, Jason Austin <jason.austin_at_s...>
wrote:
> Hi Jeff
>
> Let the Advanced list be an unmoderated free-for-all, and moderate
the
> General list to support and encourage the newbies and dabblers.
> Remember the enthusiasm in the early days when we used to talk
about
> receipies and building brewers, when nary a harsh word was
spoken? Now
> commercial brewers are more readily available and affordable so new
> comers have even more choice. They just need a nurturing place to
get
> their roots started.
>
> Regards
>
> Jason
>
>
> Jeff Lowenfels wrote:
>
> > Thanks Jason! Another list? aghhhhhhhh_at_*&#!
> >
> > The idea behind the Newbie day is to start new threads. If the
> > "dominators" want to answer the questions, fine, but this seems
like a
> > good way to get new threads that can be useful to all no matter
their
> > experience.
> >
> > Keep the thoughts coming!
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > Plant a Row in your garden to feed the hungry. Join Plant A Row
for the
> > Hungry. Ask me how. www.gwaa.org/Par/index.html
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/compost_tea/
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > compost_tea-unsubscribe_at_yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:compost_tea-unsubscribe_at_yahoogroups.com?
subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >
> >
 
 
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 6
   Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 10:58:31 -0900
   From: Jeff Lowenfels <jeff_at_gardener.com>
Subject: Re: Two Decisions
 
 
Plant a Row in your garden to feed the hungry. Join Plant A Row for the
Hungry. Ask me how. www.gwaa.org/Par/index.html
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 7
   Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 12:08:09 -0800
   From: "Ted Peterson" <ted.peterson_at_tcsn.net>
Subject: Re: basic questions
 
----- Original Message -----
From: butch ragland
To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 10:11 PM
Subject: Re: [compost_tea] basic questions
 
 
 
I can't tell you how many times I've tried to get this
straight answer.
 
 
Butch:
 
Yes. You need a decomposing organic base in your soil. CT cannot provide
it. Only compost or some form or decomposing organic waste can.
 
If you are growing vegetables, a certain amount of nutrients are removed
from the soil. The basic laws of thermodynamics cover this pretty well.
Matter cannot be created or destroyed but it can be converted and
transformed. Plants use the nutrients and minerals (among other things) in
the soil and transfer them to the plant and the fruit. Flowering and
seeding use a lot of resources from the soil. Somehow, these nutrients and
minerals must be resupplied. Compost is one way and probably the most
effective way of ensuring long-term soil health.
 
Remember that all that brewing CT does is multiply the biology FROM the
compost and allow you to apply it to the soil in a different form. THAT'S
IT! It cannot replace compost as a source of organic matter. However,
there may be organic matter in the soil that is unused because the soil
biology is dormant or nonexistant. In these cases, CT can reactivate the
use of the existing organic matter. When this is gone and if there is no
program to reuse the plant material by allowing it to decompose into the
soil, organic matter has to be introduced in some way. Compost and mulch
have proven to absolutely work in these conditions.
 
Now, how much do you need?
 
Depending on crops, most people I work with try to apply compost at least
every two to five years. I have one client who composts anew every year bu=
t
I don't think this is necessary. Also, if you read about sustainability,
you will find that part of the sustainable approach is to use clovers and
other crops that are mowed and allowed to decompose as a source of organic
matter.
 
A good friend of mine is Joe Clokey. He's the son of Art Clokey of Gumby
fame and now manages the Gumby empire. Before he took that over, he starte=
d
a company called San Luis Video Publications. He, and his wife, produced a
bunch of video tapes based around sustainable agriculture and horticulture.=
 
They are good starting points if you are thinking of implementing
sustainable ag.
 
www.slovideo.com
 
San Luis Video Publishing
(805) 528-8322
 
[This message contained attachments]
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 8
   Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 07:30:44 -0500
   From: "Perry Clutts" <addy_at_arczip.com>
Subject: Re: basic questions
 
  I can't tell you how many times I've tried to get this
  straight answer. If I understand, for long term
  sustainability some form of organic debris must be in
  the system. Either as residue or from some external
  source.
Butch,
 
I'm not sure if I can answer this, but I have some thoughts... first, corn
is (usually) harvested for silage or grain.. not both... By the time corn i=
s
harvested for grain the stalks and leaves have dried down to the point wher=
e
they have lost much of their sugars and the fiber has changed so that it is
not as digestible (however, it can be a useful feed if baled after the grai=
n
is harvested). Silage is harvested in a one step process when the plant is
still green. It needs the sugars and moisture for the fermentation process,
so everything - stalk, leaves and ears go into silage.
 
So, a silage field looks very bare after harvest, with 6" to 12" stobs
sticking up. When grain is harvested, all the stover (residue) goes out the
back of the combine, and the only thing that leaves the field is the grain.
On a dry matter basis, stover contains approx 50% of the total above ground
biomass of the corn plant. So, 140 bushel corn x 56 (weight of a bushel) =
=
7840 pounds of grain and stover.
 
I was unable to find any definitive answers about total below ground (root)
biomass... Most said that it is equal to the above ground amount, but I don
t know if that means combining the gain, stalk and leaves of just the leave=
s
 I've always heard that there is as much below ground as there is above
ground... If the roots only equal the plant biomass minus the grain, over 3
tons of material per acre is a lot to work with! But I'm not sure that it
would be possible to improve without putting more organic matter back. It
also seems likely that you would have other problems in building soil in a
corn silage system since their is (usually) conventional use of chemicals i=
n
typical silage growing situations and lack of cover during winter which wil=
l
promote soil erosion. Another important factor would be rotation. If it is
continuous corn silage (year after year) chances are you won't improve. If
there are other crops in the system (such as forages) you might be able to
offset the silage production of one year out of so many in the total
rotation. If I were growing silage, I would use rye as a cover crop. Silage
is cut earlier in the fall (since it is green) and allows the cover to
become well established. One "problem" in this system is the spring when
this rye cover keeps soil moist and cool.The best scenario is to spray with
compost tea before spring tillage. Another alternative to the rye, that doe=
s
not provide quite as much biomass as rye, is spring oats planted in the fal=
l
 Here in Ohio, they usually die in the winter, so that there isn't as much
of a problem in the spring...
 
Anyhow, I know you mentioned in your original post that you weren't
interested in cover crops, but it is really important in a silage system (I
think!!!)... and a main point is that there is more "undigested" organic
matter being left by a previous crop than just what is on top of the soil. =
I
hope others will be able to contribute to how compost tea can help in the
digestion of this resource!!!
 
p.s. An interesting note... while looking for figures about residue biomass=
.
most of the sites are about ethanol production and using the "waste" and
useless material" for production.... of course no value given to it benefit=
s
as a food resource for soil life....
 
Perry
Circleville, Ohio
 
[This message contained attachments]
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 9
   Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 11:01:39 -0800 (PST)
   From: Robert Norsen <bnbrew_at_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: basic questions
 
Forget the rules, Butch. Use your good sense. Bacteria are like other
forms of life. Same for fungi and protozoa. They need food to survive.
Some can hibernate a long time but if they are active they must eat. For
soil microbes, food can be organic hydrocarbon debris or the exudate from
growing plants or added kelp or molasses or dog dew or whatever but clean
sand, clean clay, will result in the critters starve or go dormant. Among
the thousands of varieties of microbes involved some will respond
differently from others. Can they live by disolving clean rock for food? =
 
Elaine might know. I would believe they can disolve rock only in the
presence of other food that gives them the ability to form enzymes and the
enzymes and acids they produce disolve the rock and furnishes them with a
small fraction of their 'food'.
The great thing about this system is that the debris that we can't use, wha=
t
is left in the ground or on the ground becomes their food. Then in the
wonderous way of the soil food web this life benefits the plants that they
are dependent on and form ways to conserve the water they both need, they
eat the forms of life around them including some forms that would harm the
plants.
 
It is easy to think this was all planned by some very intelligent contoller=
.
 Or did it just happen because it worked?. Or rather it worked until semi
super beings found ways to "make" plants grow under heavy fisted chemical
control. Now our return to a natural way of soil life needs to gently ,
carefully nurture that life to return it to approximate a natural conditio=
n
 A high ratio of fiber, old plant debris, animal waste, plant roots, live
and dead will provide the essential food for the microbes. Live plants are
important to furnish the exudates some species need. Compost and ACT can
introduce part of the natrural microbe life forms.
 
Never a straight hard answer, Butch. So many variables - Bob
butch ragland <wilddog_202_at_yahoo.com> wrote:
 
 
I can't tell you how many times I've tried to get this
straight answer. If I understand, for long term
sustainability some form of organic debris must be in
the system. Either as residue or from some external
source.
 
 
--- soilfoodweb_at_aol.com wrote:
> Of course, compost tea alone cannot build soil. But
> it can go a long way
> towards getting you there. Compost can go a long
> way to getting you there.
>
> But we always have to be growing plants, and using
> the residues to help the
> soil build.
 
=====
Butch Ragland
Conflict is as addictive as
cocaine, alcohol, cigarettes,etc
I'm sorry to report that
cooperation is not
 
 
 
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
 
 
 
 
 
 
Yahoo! Groups Links
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
[This message contained attachments]
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 10
   Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 00:39:09 -0000
   From: "Titel Ryzhomer" <thegoodjob_at_hotmail.com>
Subject: fungal hyphae
 
 
Hi Folks,
 
I finally got a microscope and am seeing lots of fungal strands but
unfortunately they are across my eyeballs; And somebody please help
me; I have an odd shaped cocci!
 
Grin,
Titel
 
PS. Ted, forget the dissertation.
 
 
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 11
   Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:36:19 -0800
   From: "Ted Peterson" <ted.peterson_at_tcsn.net>
Subject: Re: fungal hyphae
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Titel Ryzhomer
To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 4:39 PM
Subject: [compost_tea] fungal hyphae
 
 
 
 
PS. Ted, forget the dissertation.
 
 
 
But you love them so. How can I resist? It's been raining here for over a
week so I have been housebound. Just me and my experiments.
 
Ted the dissertater
 
[This message contained attachments]
 
 
 
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________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 12
   Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 12:32:01 -0800
   From: "Ted Peterson" <ted.peterson_at_tcsn.net>
Subject: Re: non-aerated teas?
 
Jason:
 
We have a vinyard close by that uses compost tea. The vinyard is not one o=
f
my clients. (The farm manager and I have become pretty good friends.) They
have been using tea for about five years (before I got into the business).=
 
Here is a description of their tea "machine".
 
Two plastic 55 gallon drums (They have since made a much larger "machine." =
I
think it is between 500 and 800 gallons.) The top one is suspended about 1
foot from the bottom drum. The bottom of the top drum is perforated. A
burlap "screen" is put between the two barrels. Compost is added onto the
screen. Water is poured into the top drum and drops through the compost and
screen into the bottom barrel. A syphon pump recirculates the water back t=
o
the top drum the equivelant of three times.
 
They take the tea out and use it.
 
That's their compost tea and it works just fine. I approached them with th=
e
idea of aeration and nutrients but they are having good success and have
plant assays to prove it. The farm manager told me that his approach is
that the descending water picks up enough O2 as it drips onto the compost t=
o
get the results they want. They add no other nutrients to the water or to
the compost.
 
They make pretty good compost by the way.
 
Ted Peterson
SOE
 
 
 
[This message contained attachments]
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 13
   Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 16:34:05 -0900
   From: Jeff Lowenfels <jeff_at_gardener.com>
Subject: Re: fungal hyphae
 
TITEL,
 
Did you get Soil Foodweb's handbook to go along with the microscope.
It is your missing key.
 
Cheers,
 
jeff
Plant a Row in your garden to feed the hungry. Join Plant A Row for the
Hungry. Ask me how. www.gwaa.org/Par/index.html
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 14
   Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 02:52:58 -0000
   From: "Titel Ryzhomer" <thegoodjob_at_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: fungal hyphae
 
 
Hi Jeff,
 
Yes indeedy I did get the manual and find it helpful. My earlier
post was actually just a joke to add a bit of laughter to the list
or group.
 
Seriously, I got an old American Optical Binoc; 10X, 20X, 40X
infinity corrected plan objectives, 100X infinity corrected semi-
plan oil objective, transformer controlled light intensity, field
controlled light, aspherical aplanatic condenser N.A. 1.25 (like an
Abbe but a little better). The mechanical stage and focus gears are
smooth like beautiful. All this for $550 USD. I am very happy. A
trinocular head and USB CMOS feed for computer interface are on
their way through the post.
 
Cheers
Titel
 
PS. Ted, you old coger (sp?). So do you use a water pump or air pump
for your flow form?
 
--- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, Jeff Lowenfels <jeff_at_g...> wrote:
> TITEL,
>
> Did you get Soil Foodweb's handbook to go along with the
microscope.
> It is your missing key.
>
> Cheers,
>
> jeff
> Plant a Row in your garden to feed the hungry. Join Plant A Row
for the
> Hungry. Ask me how. www.gwaa.org/Par/index.html
 
 
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 15
   Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 12:56:54 +1000
   From: "Scott Alexander" <daylily_at_bigpond.com>
Subject: Mystery Organic Spray
 
A person in a daylily group I belong to wrote:-
"I am currently testing a new product for daylilies it kills aphids,
spider mites, ants, Beatles and it also seems to help slow rust and maybe=

even kills it. I am still in the early stages on the rust part but what's=

really great about this stuff is its 100% organic no toxins and no
hazardous waste. According to the CEO I am dealing with the Florida
University and the Georgia University are also running tests on this
product, it just passed its pest test which I can attest to personally. All=

exoskeleton insects are dead in my 24 beds. I hate ants so I will be doing=

a lot more spraying around my yard as well. Another benefit to this stuff=

is it cleans your plants and it helps in the germinating of seeds.
 
Doesn't that product sound just like well-made aerated compost tea? What do=

you think?
 
Scott Alexander.
 
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 16
   Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 20:00:31 -0800
   From: "Thomas Jaszewski" <tom_at_livesoil.com>
Subject: Engineering Tools Utility
 
 
 
Download a useful conversion calculator and terminology application at
http://www.engnetglobal.com/tips/toolsapp/dl_branded.asp?co=bowman
 
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 17
   Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 20:01:13 -0800
   From: "Thomas Jaszewski" <tom_at_livesoil.com>
Subject: Engineering Tools Utility
 
 
 
Download a useful conversion calculator and terminology application at
http://www.engnetglobal.com/tips/toolsapp/dl_branded.asp?co=bowman
 
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 18
   Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 13:11:49 +1000
   From: "Scott Alexander" <daylily_at_bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: fungal hyphae
 
From: "Titel Ryzhomer" <thegoodjob_at_hotmail.com>
Hi Folks, I finally got a microscope and am seeing lots of fungal strands=

but unfortunately they are across my eyeballs;
 
Titel, that's the very reaon I didn't go ahead and buy microscope. I've=

got too much "debris" between my lens and the retina.
Scott
 
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 19
   Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 13:05:57 +1000
   From: "Scott Alexander" <daylily_at_bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: basic questions
 
Perry wrote:- I was unable to find any definitive answers about total below
ground (root) biomass... Most said that it is equal to the above ground
amount, but I don't know if that means combining the gain, stalk and leaves
of just the leaves. I've always heard that there is as much below ground as
there is above ground...
 
I'm sure i read somewhere many years ago that there was 7000 miles of roots
under a mature perennial rye plant. This would include the barely visible
hair-roots and those not visible to the eye. If the above is correct, that'=
s
a lot of organic matter left in the soil!
Scott
 
 
[This message contained attachments]
 
 
 
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Message: 20
   Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 21:42:47 -0800
   From: "Ted Peterson" <ted.peterson_at_tcsn.net>
Subject: Re: Re: fungal hyphae
 
Titel:
 
Great scope. I'm green with envy and it's codger. Contact me off list.
 
Ted Peterson
SOE
ted.peterson_at_tcsn.net
 
PS. I appreciate your humor.
 
[This message contained attachments]
 
 
 
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Yahoo! Groups Links
 
 
 
 
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Received on Mon Jan 03 2005 - 14:22:27 EST

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