Subject: Re: Alternate Traffic control that is attractive

From: [email-masked] (John Oliver)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 10:13:21

John Reece writes:

>>>      ADVANTAGES OF ROUNDABOUTS
>>>
>>>1. Safety
>>>   
>>>Roundabouts in the USA and other countries have achieved a 50 to 90
>>>percent reduction in collisions compared to intersections using 2- or
>>>4-way stop control or traffic signals.  Pedestrian/vehicle and
>>>bicycle/vehicle coll
>>>isions at roundabouts are rare.
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>When I was young, roundabouts (or traffic circles) were a commonplace
>>in the USA. Since then, most have been replaced by grade separated
>>interchanges or simple intersections. I must assume that traffic
>>studies have shown them to be a problem of some kind.
>>
>>My own observation was that a roundabout, like a true cloverleaf, has a
>>point on its traffic density curve where it abruptly gridlocks.

>I recently spent two weeks in an English town (Swindon) about 
>the same size as Santa Cruz,CA.  Virtually every junction was
>either a roundabout or a mini-roundabout, where the circle
>is dictated by a manhole-sized bump.  I noticed
>that at lighter traffic densities one could zip across
>town with a lot less needless stopping.  Where traffic
>densities were regularly higher stoplights would
>be installed, sometimes on the connecting roads,
>sometimes in the roundabout itself.  The latter
>situation seemed to work no worse than a conventional +
>intersection.

>I think there is another benefit to roundabouts.
>British drivers have to 'read' the  junction
>far in advance, and carefully observe certain 
>position-keeping rules while in the roundabout.
>As a consequence they seemed to drive around
>in less of a trance than American drivers, who
>generally only pay enough attention to notice
>a red light coming on in front of them.

>On the other hand, how are you going to
>educate American drivers about roundabout driving?
>I had one of the few roundabouts in California
>at the entrance to an apartment complex I once
>lived in.  I had numerous near-misses with
>people who took the wrong way around, despite
>several one-way signs and arrows.

I spent a week in Dunton, England (western suburb of London) a couple of years 
ago, and I was very impressed by the roundabouts.  To me, they seemed to exist 
at intersections where, in the U.S., we would have a 4-way stop or traffic 
light.  The best part about the roundabouts, IMHO, was that if everyone was 
paying attention, NO ONE had to come to a stop!  The 4-way stop requires 
everyone to stop; the roundabout requires no one to stop.  You simply yield 
('give way') to the car that is already in the roundabout.  It seemed much 
more efficient to me.  

Of course, the roundabout can be carried to extremes.  There was a nearby town 
(Romford?) that had FIVE roundabouts, all interconnected to form a giant, 
rounded pentagon!  Talk about confusing.  But maybe it's just because I was 
not a local.  And there are certainly confusing intersections in this country 
as well.

I think I've stated the very reason why these devices can't be used in the 
U.S. -- "if everyone was paying attention!"  It was my experience that the 
drivers in England were much more attentive and _courteous_ than those in the 
U.S.  Here in the U.S., people seem to think that "yield" means either "stop" 
or "proceed at any speed you like with no regard for the traffic that you 
should be trying to merge with."  In England, I saw people passing on B-roads 
(2-lane blacktops) that were really almost 3-lanes wide, and both the cars 
being passed and the oncoming traffic moved toward the shoulder to let them 
through!  Just try that in this country!

John Oliver
Canton, MI

'94 Probe GT
'92 Trek 2100

******************************************************************************************
All opinions expressed above are my own and in no way represent the views of
Ford Motor Co. 
******************************************************************************************

---

From: "James L. Brunson" <jlb>
Date: 14 Sep 1995 15:02:55 GMT

>('give way') to the car that is already in the roundabout.  It seemed much 

I read somewhere that Vail, Colorado just recently replaced their horrendous
4-way stop (leading from the interstate into town) with a roundabout.  The
time spent at the 4-way easily climbed into the minutes (speaking from 
experience); with the roundabout, the wait is now usually just seconds (haven't
experienced it, but from experience w/ roundabouts here, I believe it). 

James
95 Civic VTi

---

From: Paul Lu <[email-masked]>
Date: 15 Sep 1995 01:44:53 GMT

>[email-masked] (John Oliver) wrote:

+>>I spent a week in Dunton, England (western suburb of London) a couple of years 
+>>ago, and I was very impressed by the roundabouts.  To me, they seemed to exist 
+>>at intersections where, in the U.S., we would have a 4-way stop or traffic 
+>>light.  The best part about the roundabouts, IMHO, was that if everyone was 
+>>paying attention, NO ONE had to come to a stop!  The 4-way stop requires 
+>>everyone to stop; the roundabout requires no one to stop.  You simply yield 
+>>('give way') to the car that is already in the roundabout.  It seemed much 
+>>more efficient to me.  
+>I read somewhere that Vail, Colorado just recently replaced their horrendous
+>4-way stop (leading from the interstate into town) with a roundabout.  The
+>time spent at the 4-way easily climbed into the minutes (speaking from 
+>experience); with the roundabout, the wait is now usually just seconds (haven't
+>experienced it, but from experience w/ roundabouts here, I believe it). 

It works ONLY if the volume of traffic is VERY small.

Here in USA, normally STOP signs will quickly be replaced
with traffic lights due to the growing traffic volume.
If the flow is low, STOP sign won't be needed. Normally,
the volume increase, so the STOP sign were installed
and within six months, traffic lights show up.

Those rotories are beautiful to be attractive. The cost
OTOH is higher, thus hardly attractive.

---

From: "James L. Brunson" <jlb>
Date: 15 Sep 1995 10:03:20 GMT

>It works ONLY if the volume of traffic is VERY small.

I disagree.  Traffic volume in the Lugano area can hardly be characterized as
'small', and I guarantee that with stops instead of roundabouts, the backups
would be significantly more severe.  In fact, in the next couple of years,
additional roundabouts will be built to replace intersections where the flow
of traffic otherwise comes to a stop.  Take Vail as well;  with small traffic
volume, their 4-way was sufficient.  But sprinkle some of that Rocky Mountain
powder onto the back bowls, and the traffic jams created by skiers eager to
carve turns of a different sort quickly overwhelm the 4-way.... thus, the
roundabout.

James
95 Civic VTi

---

From: [email-masked] (John Oliver)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 07:50:39

Brian Allardice writes:

>I'm not even going to try to figure out who wrote what, but

>In article <[email-masked]>, Paul Lu <[email-masked]> says:
>>
>>+>>ago, and I was very impressed by the roundabouts..... the roundabout
>>+>> requires no one to stop. 

>And that is a *BIG* problem for pedestrians.  Having spent a couple of
>years dodging roundabout traffic in the U.K. I find it difficult to
>recommend them in situations with pedestrian traffic.

Good point.  I must admit that when I was in Dunton (I was the author of that 
little paragraph), I saw hardly any pedestrians in the areas where I was 
driving (mostly light industrial-type areas).  

But I would still say that in the U.S., I've seen many a 4-way stop with an 
equally small number of pedestrians, where maybe a roundabout would have been 
more effective.

John Oliver
Canton, MI

'94 Probe GT
'92 Trek 2100

---

From: [email-masked] (John Reece)
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 95 17:57:56 GMT

>>recommend them in situations with pedestrian traffic.

Usually the Brits put in a crosswalk, with a stoplight, further down the
street from the roundabout.  All-in-all much safer than the
California practice of painting two white lines sans signals in any old 
place and hoping that drivers can notice them in time.

Unfortunately going with roundabouts, at least in California, would
require a massive driver education campaign.  I had one of the
few roundabouts in the state at the entrance to where I once lived.  50% 
of the people had no clue that it was one-way, despite big arrows 
painted  on the pavement,  and were always going around it the wrong 
way. In fact, one time I got into an argument/deadlock with someone when 
I went 'round on the inside and came head-to-head with someone going
the other,wrong, way.  The other driver kept insisting the problem was 
that I was on the wrong side of the road!

John Reece               | Kato Kaelin - bimboy to the stars
Not an Intel spokesman   |