From kevina  Mon Apr 10 00:44:46 1995
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From: angelo@euronet.nl (Angelo_B.V.)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Unfair speed limits
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 11:02:06
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Do people agree that it is unfair to have the same speed limit for different 
kind of autos ?

For example, driving a BMW 750 at 140 km/h you can still be looking at the
newspaper on the seat next to you.  At the same speed in a Fiat Panda, your 
are playing with your life.

So, why if you are so lucky to drive a nice car like a BMW,  you have to 
behave like you are driving a Panda?

It seems to me that the law discriminate people having good, safe cars.

Any opinions?


                                    Angelo




From kevina  Mon Apr 10 00:44:48 1995
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From: Derek B Shaffer <dsc4+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Unfair speed limits
Date: Sat,  8 Apr 1995 13:41:17 -0400
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Excerpts from netnews.rec.autos.driving: 8-Apr-95 Unfair speed limits by
Angelo_B.V.@euronet.nl 
> Do people agree that it is unfair to have the same speed limit for different 
> kind of autos ?
> 
> For example, driving a BMW 750 at 140 km/h you can still be looking at the
> newspaper on the seat next to you.  At the same speed in a Fiat Panda, your 
> are playing with your life.
> 
> So, why if you are so lucky to drive a nice car like a BMW,  you have to 
> behave like you are driving a Panda?

I do think that the speed limits on most roads are artificially low, but
what if some cars were allowed to go twice as fast as others?  It seems
to me that that would create just as much of a saftey hazard as allowing
everyone to do 140km/h+ (or 88mph+).  It would especially jeopardize the
safety of those in Pandas or similar, and then they would be the ones
who feel discriminated against.

> It seems to me that the law discriminate people having good, safe cars.

It would only make sense - most good, safe cars burn more gas than
econoboxes, thus making a country less economically independent.  And
you know that a cop is more likely to pull over a Mercedes going the
same speed as a Chevy.
    But where it hurts more is in paying for the insurance.  I'm buying
a car this summer, and despite what my insurance agent said, it *will*
be a Saab.  What my insurance did say, though, is that Saabs are one of
the most expensive cars to insure.  "The turbo models?" I asked?  "All
of them, though the turbos are about 20-20% more", she said.  It seems
to me that if anyone should be promoting safe cars, it is the insurance
companies!

-DS

"Once you start down the         "Aaarrgggghh! Aaarrrggghhh!"
  dark path, forever will      /\          -Chewbacca
   it dominate your destiny." /~^\/\^/\
                  -Yoda      / /`/^~\`~\     "65 2 slow." - DS
===============================================================
Derek Shaffer dsc4@andrew.cmu.edu (Carnegie Mellon) A3k/Emplant

From kevina  Mon Apr 10 00:44:49 1995
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From: steph@primenet.com (Steph Greenberg)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Unfair speed limits
Date: 8 Apr 1995 18:29:46 GMT
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Derek B Shaffer (dsc4+@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote:
: Excerpts from netnews.rec.autos.driving: 8-Apr-95 Unfair speed limits by
: Angelo_B.V.@euronet.nl 
:     But where it hurts more is in paying for the insurance.  I'm buying
: a car this summer, and despite what my insurance agent said, it *will*
: be a Saab.  What my insurance did say, though, is that Saabs are one of
: the most expensive cars to insure.  "The turbo models?" I asked?  "All
: of them, though the turbos are about 20-20% more", she said.  It seems
: to me that if anyone should be promoting safe cars, it is the insurance
: companies!

If you have a quote in writing, you will see that it's probably falling 
in the comprehensive and collision catagory. If this isn't true, check 
with 20th Century insurance, which has some of the lowest rates (at least 
in california).

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steph Greenberg                       
steph@primenet.com           "Every Friday is a prelude to Monday." 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From kevina  Mon Apr 10 00:44:51 1995
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From: brindle@lf.hp.com (Mark Brindle)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Unfair speed limits
Date: 9 Apr 1995 13:58:27 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Little Falls Site
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Eric Bin (ebin@malibu.sfu.ca) wrote:

: A large number of experts believe that the biggest cause of accidents
: on the highways is speed differential.  For example, a Trabant leaps
: into the left lane to pass but he's passing at 70mph while you in your
: shiny new NSX are closing in a 140mph.  Your risk of an accident is
: very high in this case.

I agree that speed differential is a concern;  but, the *MAIN*
cause of accidents is driver inattention and/or incompetence.
Speed differentials on the German autobahns are *ENORMOUS* --
closing speeds of well over 100 mph are commonplace;  yet, the
accident rates are lower than on US interstates.  No, I'm *not*
suggesting that speed limits should be abolished in the US --
at least not any time soon.  US driver-training (and attitude!)
would need to be vastly improved before that would be practical.


: Everyone should travel at the same sppeed for maximum safety.

For *MAXIMUM* safety, automobiles should be totally abolished;
that's *almost* as practical as insisting that everyone drive
at the same speed.  There are lots of *excellent* drivers who
wisely choose to go slower than "the flow" of traffic -- maybe  
because of advancing age...  or an older car...  or a 3000 lb
sailboat back there on the trailer.

...why outlaw common sense?

Mark

From kevina  Mon Apr 10 00:44:52 1995
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From: gribble@primenet.com
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Unfair speed limits
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 15:05:10 MST
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In article <3m8p63$nnb@hpavla.lf.hp.com> brindle@lf.hp.com (Mark Brindle) writes:
>From: brindle@lf.hp.com (Mark Brindle)
>Subject: Re: Unfair speed limits
>Date: 9 Apr 1995 13:58:27 GMT

>Eric Bin (ebin@malibu.sfu.ca) wrote:

>: A large number of experts believe that the biggest cause of accidents
>: on the highways is speed differential.  For example, a Trabant leaps
>: into the left lane to pass but he's passing at 70mph while you in your
>: shiny new NSX are closing in a 140mph.  Your risk of an accident is
>: very high in this case.

>I agree that speed differential is a concern;  but, the *MAIN*
>cause of accidents is driver inattention and/or incompetence.
>Speed differentials on the German autobahns are *ENORMOUS* --
>closing speeds of well over 100 mph are commonplace;  yet, the
>accident rates are lower than on US interstates.

Are you sure about that?  I've heard that is a myth, that the accident rates 
(or maybe it was fatality rate) on the autobahn are much higher then on US 
interstates.

From kevina  Mon Apr 10 00:44:54 1995
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From: ryan.rahim@dynamite.com
Subject: Unfair speed limits
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 > From: angelo@euronet.nl (Angelo_B.V.)


 > Do people agree that it is unfair to have the same speed limit for 
 > different 
 > kind of autos ?
 > 
 > For example, driving a BMW 750 at 140 km/h you can still be looking 
 > at the
 > newspaper on the seat next to you.  At the same speed in a Fiat 
 > Panda, your 
 > are playing with your life.
 > 
 > So, why if you are so lucky to drive a nice car like a BMW,  you 
 > have to 
 > behave like you are driving a Panda?
 > 
 > It seems to me that the law discriminate people having good, safe 
 > cars.
 > 

That's because the people in the 750i driving at 140 km/h are endangered by the
people driving Pandas at 90 km/h.



From kevina  Mon Apr 10 00:44:50 1995
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From: ebin@malibu.sfu.ca (Eric Bin)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Unfair speed limits
Date: 8 Apr 95 21:16:28 GMT
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angelo@euronet.nl (Angelo_B.V.) writes:

A large number of experts believe that the biggest cause of accidents
on the highways is speed differential.  For example, a Trabant leaps
into the left lane to pass but he's passing at 70mph while you in your
shiny new NSX are closing in a 140mph.  Your risk of an accident is
very high in this case.


Everyone should travel at the same sppeed for maximum safety.

Eric Bin
ebin@sfu.ca

>Do people agree that it is unfair to have the same speed limit for different 
>kind of autos ?

>For example, driving a BMW 750 at 140 km/h you can still be looking at the
>newspaper on the seat next to you.  At the same speed in a Fiat Panda, your 
>are playing with your life.

>So, why if you are so lucky to drive a nice car like a BMW,  you have to 
>behave like you are driving a Panda?

>It seems to me that the law discriminate people having good, safe cars.

>Any opinions?


>                                    Angelo




From kevina  Mon Apr 10 00:44:53 1995
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From: jwk3@po.CWRU.Edu (John W. Kale)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Unfair speed limits
Date: 9 Apr 1995 22:35:58 GMT
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In a previous article, brindle@lf.hp.com (Mark Brindle) says:

>I agree that speed differential is a concern;  but, the *MAIN*
>cause of accidents is driver inattention and/or incompetence.
>Speed differentials on the German autobahns are *ENORMOUS* --
>closing speeds of well over 100 mph are commonplace;  yet, the
                                                       ^^^^^^^^
>accident rates are lower than on US interstates.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

	This isn't a flame, but could you give a source or a citation
or something to back this up? I was actually arguing one side or another
of this subject with someone once, and I was unable to find any stats for
autobahn accident rates. I'm honestly interested.

John
-- 
Looking down the barrel of a loaded gun  |       John Kale          ''''
Just to see where the bullets come from  |   jwk3@po.cwru.edu       -o-o
        -Screaming Blue Messiahs         |                   ---UUU---U--UUU--
             MY IDEAS ARE MINE ALONE -- Living Colour, "Middle Man"

From kevina  Mon Apr 10 00:44:47 1995
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From: steph@primenet.com (Steph Greenberg)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Unfair speed limits
Date: 8 Apr 1995 17:28:59 GMT
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Angelo_B.V. (angelo@euronet.nl) wrote:
: Do people agree that it is unfair to have the same speed limit for different 
: kind of autos ?

: For example, driving a BMW 750 at 140 km/h you can still be looking at the
: newspaper on the seat next to you.  At the same speed in a Fiat Panda, your 
: are playing with your life.

The main cause of accidents, besides inattentive or impaired drivers that 
is, is the difference in speed between cars. If everyone goes fast, and 
makes certain that there are no other cars next to them when they change 
lanes, and leaves enough room between them and other cars so if anything 
happens in front of them they have enough time to react, then you can 
raise the speed limit. 

The problem is, sometimes it's safer to drive 80 than others. When it's 
daylight and there's very few cars on the road, it's as safe as going 50. 
But I've been on interstate 5 going north numerous times at around 100, 
and I can tell you it's nerve wracking. You're cruising, and some truck 
in the right lane going up a slight grade is slowing down traffic in the 
lane next to you. 

What happens? Some moron, who doesn't look at the lane next to him/her, 
pulls right in front of you at around 40. Your engine doesn't end up in 
their back seat only because you had the smarts to slow down.

In order to raise the speed limit you have to educate stupid drivers more 
thoroughly or deny them licenses. I don't think you'll see either in your 
lifetime.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steph Greenberg                       
steph@primenet.com           "Every Friday is a prelude to Monday." 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From kevina  Mon Apr 10 16:42:29 1995
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From: legerlotz@gigi32.enet.dec.com
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Unfair speed limits
Date: 10 Apr 1995 12:34:37 GMT
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RE: Saabs more to insure

The reason for this is not with regard to the safety (ie: reduced medical claims],
but to the cost of repair to the vehicle.

Safety features like "crumple zones" are great, but they trash the car.  This
translates to more cars being "totaled" or needing costly extensive repairs,
which translates to the insurance company paying out more in claims.

Its simple economics and has little to do with whether the cars are, or are not,
safe; The insurance company doesn't care about that.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Al Legerlotz          <legerlotz@gigi32.enet.dec.com>
Digital Equipment Corporation

All statements are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions
of Digital Equipment Corporation.


From kevina  Mon Apr 10 16:43:48 1995
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From: steph@primenet.com (Steph Greenberg)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Unfair speed limits
Date: 10 Apr 1995 06:17:57 GMT
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John W. Kale (jwk3@po.CWRU.Edu) wrote:

: In a previous article, brindle@lf.hp.com (Mark Brindle) says:

: >I agree that speed differential is a concern;  but, the *MAIN*
: >cause of accidents is driver inattention and/or incompetence.
: >Speed differentials on the German autobahns are *ENORMOUS* --
: >closing speeds of well over 100 mph are commonplace;  yet, the
:                                                        ^^^^^^^^
: >accident rates are lower than on US interstates.
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

: 	This isn't a flame, but could you give a source or a citation
: or something to back this up? I was actually arguing one side or another
: of this subject with someone once, and I was unable to find any stats for
: autobahn accident rates. I'm honestly interested.

I don't have any stats, but from what I saw when I was in Germany, the 
fatality rates for accidents on the Autobahn were appaling. The debris 
from a single accident could stretch for 3/4 of a kilometer. If you saw a 
relatively fresh accident, what was left couldn't be identified as an 
automobile.

Germany requires private driver training which includes physics and other 
essentials that indoctrinate good driving habits. Driving tests are more 
frequent. Imagine unlimited speed limits in a country where drivers don't 
even turn their heads to see if there's another car right next to them. 

Let alone one coming at them at 100+mph faster than they're going. 

Not that I wouldn't mind unlimited speeds if I was the only one on the 
road. Or everyone on the road was SCCA certified.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steph Greenberg                       
steph@primenet.com           "Every Friday is a prelude to Monday." 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From kevina  Mon Apr 10 16:44:31 1995
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From: brindle@lf.hp.com (Mark Brindle)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Unfair speed limits
Date: 10 Apr 1995 12:05:00 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Little Falls Site
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Steph Greenberg (steph@primenet.com) wrote:
: John W. Kale (jwk3@po.CWRU.Edu) wrote:
: : brindle@lf.hp.com (Mark Brindle) says:

: : >I agree that speed differential is a concern;  but, the *MAIN*
: : >cause of accidents is driver inattention and/or incompetence.
: : >Speed differentials on the German autobahns are *ENORMOUS* --
: : >closing speeds of well over 100 mph are commonplace;  yet, the
: :                                                        ^^^^^^^^
: : >accident rates are lower than on US interstates.
: : ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

: : 	This isn't a flame, but could you give a source or a citation
: : or something to back this up? I was actually arguing one side or another
: : of this subject with someone once, and I was unable to find any stats for
: : autobahn accident rates. I'm honestly interested.

: I don't have any stats, but from what I saw when I was in Germany, the 
: fatality rates for accidents on the Autobahn were appaling. The debris 
: from a single accident could stretch for 3/4 of a kilometer. If you saw a 
: relatively fresh accident, what was left couldn't be identified as an 
: automobile.

Sorry, it's been a long time since I saw the accident-rate stats
and I don't remember the source;  but, on a basis of *accidents*
per highway-mile, German autobahns were safer than US interstates.

As far as *fatality* rates are concerned, I don't recall ever
seeing the data;  but, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the
autobahn figures are higher.  Obviously, there aren't gonna
be many survivors of 120+ mph screw-ups.  Also, I'd guess the
occupancy-rate is higher in Germany -- if so, there would be 
more passengers involved in the average mishap.

regards,

Mark

From kevina  Tue Apr 11 22:37:12 1995
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From: Gumby@tamu.edu (Gumby)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Unfair speed limits
Date: 10 Apr 1995 19:31 CDT
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steph@primenet.com (Steph Greenberg) writes...

>In a previous article, brindle@lf.hp.com (Mark Brindle) says:

[about the Autobahn]
>: the accident rates are lower than on US interstates.

>the fatality rates for accidents on the Autobahn were appaling.

Yes and yes.  There are less accidents on the Autobahn, but the few there
are, are crashes worthy of Hollywood.  I think it would work well here.
The intelligent people who don't have to travel will hide for the first
months while the stupid drivers kill each other, leaving it safe for us to
come back to roads with no limit and all the stupid drivers dead.

Marc

From kevina  Thu Apr 13 16:29:07 1995
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From: tom.neumann@westonia.com (TOM NEUMANN)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: RE: UNFAIR SPEED LIMITS
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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 22:40:00 -0500
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jwk3@po.CWRU.Edu (John W. Kale) writes:


JK>>accident rates are lower than on US interstates.
  >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

JK>        This isn't a flame, but could you give a source or a citation
  >or something to back this up? I was actually arguing one side or another
  >of this subject with someone once, and I was unable to find any stats for
  >autobahn accident rates. I'm honestly interested.

From kevina  Tue Apr 18 23:09:27 1995
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From: jon.simon@solar.org (Jon Simon)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Unfair speed limits
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 04:37:44 GMT
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>Yes and yes.  There are less accidents on the Autobahn, but the few
>there are, are crashes worthy of Hollywood.  I think it would work well
>here. The intelligent people who don't have to travel will hide for the
>first months while the stupid drivers kill each other, leaving it safe
>for us to come back to roads with no limit and all the stupid drivers
>dead.

Amen to that...  Course, the stupid 55 in the left lane driver's will be
indignant most likely and still do it...so they'll get mopped up too!

From kevina  Wed Apr 19 18:21:48 1995
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From: michaelj@relay.relay.com
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: UNFAIR SPEED LIMITS
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 13:56:18 PDT
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In article <8A72550.20EA001210.uuout@westonia.com>, tom.neumann@westonia.com said:
>
>Country                  speed limit(km/h)      hwy deaths(per million km)
>-----------              --------------         -------------------------
>Netherlands              120                       3.2
>United Kingdom           112                       3.8
>Denmark                  100                       4.9
>Switzerland              120                       4.9
>Germany                   -                        6.0
>United States             89                       6.7
>Japan                    100                       7.0
>Belgium                  120                       9.5
>Finland                  80-120                   10.2
>France                   130                      10.4
>Italy                    110-130                  12.7
>Austria                  130                      15.7
>Portugal                 120                      39.3
>Spain                    120                      61.0

It seems to me from the statistics above that not only do higher speed limits
not contribute to higher fatality rates, but there appears to be no correlation
at all between speed limits and fatality rates. 

In the table, the best and worst fatality rates (in the Netherlands and Spain,
respectively) occur with the same speed limit (120 km/h). That same limit
appears in other places as well.

To top it off, the other countries have widely varying speed limits, with no
apparent trend from lower to higher appearing as the fatality rates go up.

Perhaps the real deciding factors for fatality rates are such things as
driver training and driver attentiveness, and whether there are strictly
observed conventions/laws on lane courtesy and passing.

Michael Johnson
Relay Technology, Inc.

From kevina  Wed Apr 19 18:22:22 1995
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From: tom.neumann@westonia.com (TOM NEUMANN)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: RE: UNFAIR SPEED LIMITS
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Date: Sun, 16 Apr 95 23:00:00 -0500
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jwk3@po.CWRU.Edu (John W. Kale) writes:

JK>        Where do these numbers come from? Exactly what is a "sub 30th
  >percentile" speed? That is, are the percentiles based on long-term
  >or short-term averages? Drivers usually slow down in a blinding blizzard,
  >but are more likely to have an accident anyway. If I slow down to what
  >would be 30th percentile speed on a clear day but is 90th percentile in
  >bad weather, and have an accident, where is that accident tallied? At 90th
  >or 30th percentile?

The 30th percentile would be the speed at which 30 out of 100 drivers 
are driving at or less than (ie: 70 of 100 drivers are driving faster 
than them.)

JK>        Do you mean the stats in the chart below? They do no such thing.
  >MOST of the countries on the chart are listed having higher speed limits
  >AND higher death rates than the US, a pretty clear vindication of the
  >"speed kills" point of view.

The numbers show quite clearly that there is no correlation between 
posted speed limits and fatality rates. Other things are at work that 
account for fatality rates and posted speed limits aren't one of them.

(Note also, that regrdless of the posted speed limits in North America, 
limited access highways with the highest limits [ie: interstate 
highways, 400-series highways in Canada] have much lower fatality rates 
than highways with lower limits [that typically are not limited 
access].

Tom
---
 þ 1st 1.11 #3720 þ I sell Volkswagen Audi & Porsche

From kevina  Wed Apr 19 18:24:37 1995
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From: odk3231@tam2000.tamu.edu (Oskar Dymitr Kudla)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Unfair speed limits
Date: 19 Apr 1995 16:21:41 GMT
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Mark Brindle (brindle@lf.hp.com) wrote:

: Sorry, it's been a long time since I saw the accident-rate stats
: and I don't remember the source;  but, on a basis of *accidents*
: per highway-mile, German autobahns were safer than US interstates.

: As far as *fatality* rates are concerned, I don't recall ever
: seeing the data;  but, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the
: autobahn figures are higher.  Obviously, there aren't gonna
: be many survivors of 120+ mph screw-ups.  Also, I'd guess the
: occupancy-rate is higher in Germany -- if so, there would be 
: more passengers involved in the average mishap.

: regards,

: Mark

This has nothing to do with Mark's  reply to FATAL accidents.

I just want to note something about having no speed limit on the higways. This
past summer when I went to Germany and drove on the authobahn, I noticed that
not too many cars on the highway go more than 90 m.p.h. So I guess people can
choose a reasonable speed to drive at without having any limitation placed on
them.

Of course there are those who go 120+, but at least they can concentrate on the
road not on looking out for cops somewhere in the bushes :)

On the other hand , maybe we need speed limit - after all our highways aren't
autobahns. I myself would be scared to drive on I-45 120 m.p.h. - those of you
from TX know what i'm talking about(pot holes and other surface irregularities)

Oskar         :

From kevina  Wed Apr 19 20:34:10 1995
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From: kruman@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Unfair speed limits (Penna's are too high!!!)
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Let me say that I am in favor of increasing the speed limits, perhaps 
dramatically, IF we improve driver education and testing and eliminate 
this silly notion that driving is a right.

Having said that, if I had my say, the speed limits in Pennsylvania would 
be decreased to about 20 m.p.h. or so until the state gets off its ass 
and fixes the highway system.  I drove through part of the state this 
past weekend and was appalled at the condition of the roadway relative to 
the roads I encountered in the neighboring states of Ohio, W. Virginia, 
and Maryland.  I truly think that at 55 mph I was driving as fast as I 
would ever drive under such miserable road conditions.  Besides the 
beating the car takes, as a driver I felt mentally tired after the 
constant pounding encountered on I-79 and I-70.  It was such a relief to 
finally cross into W. Virginia and onto better roads, which, while 
certainly not perfect, were so much better than those in Pennsylvania as 
to seem glassy smooth.  I will do anything in my power to avoid driving 
through any part of PA again!

k

-- 
*****************************************************************************
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   been born on earth through no merit of yours.  Reflect, rather, on how 
   you treated them at the time, and how you have followed their teachings.

                                               -Albert Einstein
******************************************************************************
---kruman@netcom.com---

From kevina  Fri Apr 21 18:26:49 1995
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From: cen4m2a@leeds.ac.uk (M. Andreas)
Subject: Re: UNFAIR SPEED LIMITS
Message-ID: <cen4m2a.34.000AFBEE@leeds.ac.uk>
Organization: University of Leeds
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 10:58:59 +0100 (BST)
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In article <798324978.michaelj@relay.relay.com> michaelj@relay.relay.com writes:


>Perhaps the real deciding factors for fatality rates are such things as
>driver training and driver attentiveness, and whether there are strictly
>observed conventions/laws on lane courtesy and passing.

>Michael Johnson
>Relay Technology, Inc.

     I must agree.  As a visitor to the UK, I have found the observed 
conventions on passing to be quite peculiar - compared to US conventions.  For 
example, instead of having double yellow lines down the middle of the road, 
there is typically a single dashed white line.  (Which can be confusing 
because the same standard of dashed whites are used on the motorways.)  This 
seems to means that you can pass any time you feel it is safe, even if ther is 
traffic coming the other direction!  Most newer roads seem to be designed with 
exceptionally wide lanes to accomodate this kind of passing.  Essentially, two 
lane roads have an 'optional' third passing lane.
     Just my impression. . .

Mark

From kevina  Fri Apr 21 18:28:18 1995
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From: mdk3h@Virginia.EDU (Matthew David Kase)
Subject: Re: Unfair speed limits
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jon.simon@solar.org  writes:
> >Yes and yes.  There are less accidents on the Autobahn, but the few
> >there are, are crashes worthy of Hollywood.  I think it would work well
> >here. The intelligent people who don't have to travel will hide for the
> >first months while the stupid drivers kill each other, leaving it safe
> >for us to come back to roads with no limit and all the stupid drivers
> >dead.
> 
> Amen to that...  Course, the stupid 55 in the left lane driver's will be
> indignant most likely and still do it...so they'll get mopped up too!

No. You just switch the smokey's traffic duty from stopping
those running at previously illegal speeds, to stopping
and ticketing these sons of bitches. I tell you what though,
getting a ticket for going to slow would really send your
insurance company into a loop! What would they do? They surely
can't raise you rates. They'd HAVE to lower 'em. After all,
according to their logic, the slower you go the more safe you
are.


Matt Kase
88 T-Bird TurboCoupe
UVa

From kevina  Sat Apr 22 10:43:56 1995
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From: NGWF03A@prodigy.com (Karl Hostetler)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: UNFAIR SPEED LIMITS
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cen4m2a@leeds.ac.uk (M. Andreas) wrote:
>
>In article <798324978.michaelj@relay.relay.com> michaelj@relay.relay.com 
writes:
>
>
>>Perhaps the real deciding factors for fatality rates are such things 
as
>>driver training and driver attentiveness, and whether there are 
strictly
>>observed conventions/laws on lane courtesy and passing.
>
>>Michael Johnson
>>Relay Technology, Inc.
>
>     I must agree.  As a visitor to the UK, I have found the observed 
>conventions on passing to be quite peculiar - compared to US conventions.
  For 
>example, instead of having double yellow lines down the middle of the 
road, 
>there is typically a single dashed white line.  (Which can be confusing 

>because the same standard of dashed whites are used on the motorways.)  
This 
>seems to means that you can pass any time you feel it is safe, even if 
ther is 
>traffic coming the other direction!  Most newer roads seem to be 
designed with 
>exceptionally wide lanes to accomodate this kind of passing.  
Essentially, two 
>lane roads have an 'optional' third passing lane.
>     Just my impression. . .
>
>Mark

In the UK, drivers are only supposed to pass other vehicles on the right 
side of the vehicle they are passing (in the UK this is in the middle of 
the road since they drive on the left).  Therefore, it is safer to pass 
because it easier to anticipate the actions of other drivers.  In 
addition, I think that the speed limit of 70 MPH on the motorways in the 
UK is perfectly safe.  From what I have observed, drivers in Britain are 
much safer and more capable than their American counterparts.

Andrew


From kevina  Sun Apr 23 11:22:53 1995
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From: steph@primenet.com (Steph Greenberg)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: UNFAIR SPEED LIMITS
Date: 23 Apr 1995 02:56:41 GMT
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michaelj@relay.relay.com wrote:
: In article <8A72550.20EA001210.uuout@westonia.com>, tom.neumann@westonia.com said:

: It seems to me from the statistics above that not only do higher speed limits
: not contribute to higher fatality rates, but there appears to be no correlation
: at all between speed limits and fatality rates. 


Wow, talk about misinterpretation of statistical data. In most European 
cities that I've driven in the speed limit was like 80 kph (around 50 
mph). That includes Germany. On most intercity routes in the US the limit 
has been raised to 65MPH (around 112 kph) and some are 70mph (120 kph). 

What does correlate in those stats is that people from more educated 
countries get in fewer fatal accidents than people in less educated 
countries. Also there's alot less traffic in Scandinavia in general. 

So education wise, how well trained are US drivers? From my experience 
today, they're pretty stupid. On a two lane highway, slower drivers with 
a line of traffic behind them NEVER pull over to let the traffic pass them.
American drivers play with their radios a lot more (I know I do), more 
goods are shipped by truck here than in Europe (where they still ship by 
train alot) so you don't have 50,000 lbs rolling down the highway legally 
at 80 mph.

And I notice that American drivers use their rear view mirrors but never 
seem to look over their shoulder when changing lanes. NEVER. A day never 
passes when I don't get into an accident because I anticipate someone 
changing lanes in advance of their (sometimes non-existent) signaling, 
without checking to see my car there. Picture that situation 20 mph 
faster. And then some, because we would all go at least 10 mph faster 
than that.


--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steph Greenberg                       
steph@primenet.com           "Every Friday is a prelude to Monday." 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From kevina  Tue Apr 25 22:33:14 1995
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From: L.Koobs@kub.nl (L. KOOBS)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: UNFAIR SPEED LIMITS
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995  13:29 MET
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In Article <3ncfl9$dmp@news4.primenet.com> "steph@primenet.com (Steph Greenberg)" says:
> michaelj@relay.relay.com wrote:
> : In article <8A72550.20EA001210.uuout@westonia.com>, tom.neumann@westonia.com said:
> 
> : It seems to me from the statistics above that not only do higher speed limits
> : not contribute to higher fatality rates, but there appears to be no correlation
> : at all between speed limits and fatality rates. 
> 
> 
> Wow, talk about misinterpretation of statistical data. In most European 
> cities that I've driven in the speed limit was like 80 kph (around 50 
> mph). That includes Germany. On most intercity routes in the US the limit 
> has been raised to 65MPH (around 112 kph) and some are 70mph (120 kph). 
 
that would have to be 50kph i believe.... ( thats around 30 mph)
i have driven in several European countries and in most countries
th innercity limit is 50 kph...( for the record.. this is so in 
France, Belgium, Spain, Greece, Sweden, Germany ( really... in the cities..)
In Italy it is by law max speed but it isn't followed al that much by
the passionate drivers... )
Oh i forget The Netherlands....  i drive here more often than in the Above 
mentioned Countries....
In germany it's possible to drive trough a city on the Autobahn 
and then you will be driven at 80 kph however his isn't really
city traffic in most cases you'll have to take an off ramp to get to the 
"inner city" where the spped limit will be 50 kph...
> --
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Steph Greenberg                       
> steph@primenet.com           "Every Friday is a prelude to Monday." 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
 
l8r
Lennart


From kevina  Tue Apr 25 23:55:25 1995
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From: jpc@philabs.philips.com (John P. Curcio)
Subject: Re: UNFAIR SPEED LIMITS
Message-ID: <1995Apr25.171016.20882@philabs.philips.com>
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In article <3ncfl9$dmp@news4.primenet.com>,
Steph Greenberg <steph@primenet.com> wrote:

[some deleted...]

>And I notice that American drivers use their rear view mirrors but never 
>seem to look over their shoulder when changing lanes. NEVER. A day never 
>passes when I don't get into an accident because I anticipate someone 
>changing lanes in advance of their (sometimes non-existent) signaling, 
>without checking to see my car there.

While I don't doubt that what you say is true, there is really no need
to look over one's shoulder when changing lanes, PROVIDED that the
person's mirrors are properly adjusted, as I will explain...

Most idiots set their side mirrors so that they can see behind them
(New York State even recommends that in their Driver's Manual), which
is incorrect.  The rear-view mirror takes care of that.  The side
mirrors should be adjusted to see into the blind spot.  This can be
done in such a way that a car passing on one's left will move from the
rear-view mirror, to the side-view mirror, to one's peripheral vision
without resorting to looking over one's shoulder (which can be, in and
of itself, a dangerous thing to do).

>Picture that situation 20 mph 
>faster. And then some, because we would all go at least 10 mph faster 
>than that.

Don't get us started on that one again....

-JPC

-- 
 -<=>- Just say NO! to Budmilloors...   Support your local MICROBREWERY -<=>-
John P. Curcio  jpc@philabs.philips.com  Philips Labs  Briarcliff Manor, NY
   "If nothing beats a Bud, given the choice, I'd take the nothing..."
   "No goats, no boats, no motorcars, not a single 'yes-siree!'"  -BH

From kevina  Wed Apr 26 14:42:45 1995
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From: tom.neumann@westonia.com (TOM NEUMANN)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: RE: UNFAIR SPEED LIMITS
Message-ID: <8A7F35A.20EA001A52.uuout@westonia.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 95 14:18:00 -0500
Distribution: world
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steph@primenet.com (Steph Greenberg) writes:

SG>: In article <8A72550.20EA001210.uuout#westonia.com>, tom.neumann@westonia.com 
  >said:

SG>: It seems to me from the statistics above that not only do higher speed limits
  >: not contribute to higher fatality rates, but there appears to be no correlati
  >on
  >: at all between speed limits and fatality rates. 


SG>Wow, talk about misinterpretation of statistical data. In most European 
  >cities that I've driven in the speed limit was like 80 kph (around 50 
  >mph). That includes Germany. On most intercity routes in the US the limit 
  >has been raised to 65MPH (around 112 kph) and some are 70mph (120 kph). 

Where is the misrepresentation? The original post suggested that 
increasing speed limits would lead ot higher fatalities.

The numbers I posted show that there is no correlation between posted 
speed limits and fatality rates.

I agree that there are many factors that lead to fatality rates; 
however posted speed limits on major highways aren't one of them.

Tom
---
 þ 1st 1.11 #3720 þ I sell Volkswagen Audi & Porsche

From kevina  Wed Apr 26 21:37:44 1995
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From: chdpsm@dordt.edu (Chad Pasma)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: UNFAIR SPEED LIMITS
Date: 26 Apr 1995 21:58:40 GMT
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John P. Curcio (jpc@philabs.philips.com) wrote:
: In article <3ncfl9$dmp@news4.primenet.com>,
: Steph Greenberg <steph@primenet.com> wrote:

: [some deleted...]

: >And I notice that American drivers use their rear view mirrors but never 
: >seem to look over their shoulder when changing lanes. NEVER. A day never 
: >passes when I don't get into an accident because I anticipate someone 
: >changing lanes in advance of their (sometimes non-existent) signaling, 
: >without checking to see my car there.

: While I don't doubt that what you say is true, there is really no need
: to look over one's shoulder when changing lanes, PROVIDED that the
: person's mirrors are properly adjusted, as I will explain...

: Most idiots set their side mirrors so that they can see behind them
: (New York State even recommends that in their Driver's Manual), which
: is incorrect.  The rear-view mirror takes care of that.  The side
: mirrors should be adjusted to see into the blind spot.  This can be
: done in such a way that a car passing on one's left will move from the
: rear-view mirror, to the side-view mirror, to one's peripheral vision
: without resorting to looking over one's shoulder (which can be, in and
: of itself, a dangerous thing to do).

Well then what do you propose we do when we have:

a)	no rearview mirror
b)	a big pillar blocking the rear view
c)	people blocking your view
d)	a big crate in the back

Obviously I'm talking about my van and truck here.

Shoulder checks are still the best way to prevent sideswiping somebody when changing lanes. I know that from that little K-car I almost creamed when I first got my license.

: >Picture that situation 20 mph 
: >faster. And then some, because we would all go at least 10 mph faster 
: >than that.

: Don't get us started on that one again....

: -JPC

: -- 
:  -<=>- Just say NO! to Budmilloors...   Support your local MICROBREWERY -<=>-
: John P. Curcio  jpc@philabs.philips.com  Philips Labs  Briarcliff Manor, NY
:    "If nothing beats a Bud, given the choice, I'd take the nothing..."
:    "No goats, no boats, no motorcars, not a single 'yes-siree!'"  -BH

--
        +-------------------------------+-----------------------+
        |  Chad Pasma                   |  "Shut up, Harold."   |
        |  chdpsm@cc.dordt.edu          |        -- Red Green   |            
        +-------------------------------+-----------------------+
        |  USA:                         |  Canada:              |
        |  498 4th Ave NE               |  RR 1                 |
        |  DC 375                       |  Springfield, ON      |
        |  Sioux Center, IA             |  N0L 2J0              |       
        |  51250-1698                   |                       |
        +-------------------------------+-----------------------+
        |  Disclaimer:  The college thinks I'm studying. :)     |    
        +-------------------------------------------------------+


From kevina  Thu Apr 27 19:29:34 1995
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From: jpc@philabs.philips.com (John P. Curcio)
Subject: Re: UNFAIR SPEED LIMITS
Message-ID: <1995Apr27.164612.20791@philabs.philips.com>
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In article <3nmfmg$lqg@insosf1.infonet.net>,
Chad Pasma <chdpsm@dordt.edu> wrote:

[with regards to setting mirrors properly...]

>Well then what do you propose we do when we have:

>a)	no rearview mirror

I don't think it is legal to register a passenger vehicle (including
pickups and vans) in most juristictions without a rearview mirror.

>b)	a big pillar blocking the rear view

Why is the rear view so important?  The sides are infinitely more
important.

>c)	people blocking your view
>d)	a big crate in the back

>Obviously I'm talking about my van and truck here.

The situation may be a little different, but in most cases it won't be
too different (talking about passenger vans and pickups-- not
commercial trucks, step vans, busses, etc.).  Pickup trucks and vans
have larger side mirrors, which help to see more of the road.  I can
do this with my pickup.  In fact, if you have a cap on the pickup,
looking over the shoulder doesn't really help, since the cap tends to
block the over-the-shoulder view.  If you don't have a cap, there
should be no issue seeing behind.

Larger vehicles such as tractor-trailers and busses have more than one
mirror (many times the parabolic ones), so the so-called "blind spot"
is eliminated.  These can also be used on smaller vehicles, although
they aren't necessary.

One thing alluded to above: what is more important-- seeing directly
behind or seeing behind to the sides?  It seems to me that the most
accident-prone maneuver would be a lane change.  Setting your mirrors
to protect against this is infinitely more important than knowing what
the blonde bimbo driving behind you looks like.

>Shoulder checks are still the best way to prevent sideswiping
>somebody when changing lanes. I know that from that little K-car I
>almost creamed when I first got my license.

I stand by my statement.  They are unneccessary and potentially
dangerous.  Look at what happens when you turn your head around to see
behind you-- your shoulders tend to turn.  This can (and does) cause
many people to drift out of their driving lane.

BTW, the method I described for setting side mirrors is advocated by
the National Motorists Association.  It is their feeling that it is
much safer.

-JPC

-- 
 -<=>- Just say NO! to Budmilloors...   Support your local MICROBREWERY -<=>-
John P. Curcio  jpc@philabs.philips.com  Philips Labs  Briarcliff Manor, NY
   "If nothing beats a Bud, given the choice, I'd take the nothing..."
   "No goats, no boats, no motorcars, not a single 'yes-siree!'"  -BH

From kevina  Thu Apr 27 19:30:28 1995
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From: steph@primenet.com (Steph Greenberg)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: UNFAIR SPEED LIMITS
Date: 27 Apr 1995 18:39:44 GMT
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References: <8A7154B.20EA001144.uuout@westonia.com> <3ncfl9$dmp@news4.primenet.com> <1995Apr25.171016.20882@philabs.philips.com> <3nmfmg$lqg@insosf1.infonet.net> <1995Apr27.164612.20791@philabs.philips.com>
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John P. Curcio (jpc@philabs.philips.com) wrote:
: In article <3nmfmg$lqg@insosf1.infonet.net>,

: >Shoulder checks are still the best way to prevent sideswiping
: >somebody when changing lanes. I know that from that little K-car I
: >almost creamed when I first got my license.

: I stand by my statement.  They are unneccessary and potentially
: dangerous.  Look at what happens when you turn your head around to see
: behind you-- your shoulders tend to turn.  This can (and does) cause
: many people to drift out of their driving lane.

I have my mirrors set as wide as possible (they're electric, so I can change them 
pretty easily), and I also do a shoulder check, which alerts me to someone changing
lanes at the same time I am. You have to be a moron or driving too close to the
car in front of you if you can't make a quick glance over your shoulder when you change 
lanes. You only have to turn your head far enough to get a peripheral view of the area 
directly next to you. I've avoided more accidents that way than I car to describe. 
Suffice it to say at least once a week there's a car where I'm going that didn't appear 
in my mirrors.

That's why I haven't had an accident in 16 years. 

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steph Greenberg                       
steph@primenet.com           "Every Friday is a prelude to Monday." 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From kevina  Sat Apr 29 17:39:18 1995
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From: michaelj@relay.relay.com
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: UNFAIR SPEED LIMITS
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 13:56:18 PDT
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In article <8A72550.20EA001210.uuout@westonia.com>, tom.neumann@westonia.com said:
>
>Country                  speed limit(km/h)      hwy deaths(per million km)
>-----------              --------------         -------------------------
>Netherlands              120                       3.2
>United Kingdom           112                       3.8
>Denmark                  100                       4.9
>Switzerland              120                       4.9
>Germany                   -                        6.0
>United States             89                       6.7
>Japan                    100                       7.0
>Belgium                  120                       9.5
>Finland                  80-120                   10.2
>France                   130                      10.4
>Italy                    110-130                  12.7
>Austria                  130                      15.7
>Portugal                 120                      39.3
>Spain                    120                      61.0

It seems to me from the statistics above that not only do higher speed limits
not contribute to higher fatality rates, but there appears to be no correlation
at all between speed limits and fatality rates. 

In the table, the best and worst fatality rates (in the Netherlands and Spain,
respectively) occur with the same speed limit (120 km/h). That same limit
appears in other places as well.

To top it off, the other countries have widely varying speed limits, with no
apparent trend from lower to higher appearing as the fatality rates go up.

Perhaps the real deciding factors for fatality rates are such things as
driver training and driver attentiveness, and whether there are strictly
observed conventions/laws on lane courtesy and passing.

Michael Johnson
Relay Technology, Inc.

From kevina  Sat May  6 20:53:23 1995
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From: abaker5363@aol.com (ABaker5363)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Unfair speed limits
Date: 5 May 1995 16:39:27 -0400
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I would like to forward the idea of organizing a ballot initiative in
California to mandate the State government to set maximum speed limits at
reasonable rates, which would be about 85% of the road survey, and reduce
the CHP budget by half, directing the money to crime control instead of de
facto government sponsored insurance racketeering. Is anyone interested in
working on such an inititaitve? This 55/CHP insurance racketeering
operation is a national disgrace, and has gone far enough. The State of
California can'
t seem to find the money to fund a computer to track violent felons, but
they recently found enough moneyt to hire 350 MORE CHP. We need crime
control, and fair practices from our state government and police
operations.

