Subject: Running a red light

From: [email-masked] (Tak Auyeung)
Date: 21 Aug 1995 18:34:48 GMT

Does anyone knows what exactly is running a red light?  According to
"Fight your ticket and win", if the car is already in the intersection
when the light turns red, it is not "running a red light".  I was
already 2/3 through the intersection when the light turns red, was that
still running a red light?  BTW, it happened in SF.

Thanks!

--Tak

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From: [email-masked] (KENNY MORSE)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 14:46:02

>still running a red light?  BTW, it happened in SF.

Tak---

As much as I respect David Brown and his book (and often
suggest it to people), here, we differ.

CVC 21453(a)'s KEY provision...the one that gets the MOST people
hearing the world GUILTY is this: the word "FACING".

If you are caught FACING a solid red signal, then they can cite you
for running the light.  This virtually means that if your car hsa NOT
exited the intersection, and you are left facing the signal, THAT will
get you the ticket.  There is NO LAW in California against goint
through a yellow light...it's just that most people think a yellow light
means SPEED UP!!!! (see my t-shirt with THAT design on my homepage).
Is it defensible? Sure, but you MUST know how to present the case!!!

Here is how it is enforced in a practical sense....if the cop thinks you could
have stopped in time for the light, and you didn't, you're gonna get
the ticket.  If your FRONT TIRES have passed the limit line of the 
intersection when the light was GREEN or GREEN CHANGING TO
YELLOW, you have broken NO law.  BUT.....if you enter when it is
YELLOW and it changes to RED before you cleared the intersection, 
then you might get 21453(a).

Hope this helped.

Kenny Morse
Mr. Traffic
http://www.usbusiness.com/mr_traffic.html

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From: [email-masked] (Marty Bose)
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 20:26:40 -0700

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
(Tak Auyeung) wrote:

->Does anyone knows what exactly is running a red light?  According to
->"Fight your ticket and win", if the car is already in the intersection
->when the light turns red, it is not "running a red light".  I was
->already 2/3 through the intersection when the light turns red, was that
->still running a red light?  BTW, it happened in SF.

The last time I checked, the purpose of a yellow light was to warn you
that a red light was imminent, and that the definition of a red light
involved not being in the intersection when the light turned red.  By that
definition, you did indeed run a red light.

But as they say, your mileage may vary .......

Marty

-- 
A relevant signature is an oxymoron.

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From: [email-masked] (John Reece)
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 19:39:10 GMT

>>still running a red light?  BTW, it happened in SF.

Which is having a crackdown on red-light running.  They
are even putting cameras at intersections.

I've noticed the incidence of light running increasing
in the past decade.  Not necessarily the drunken, 
high-speed kind.  Mostly commuter types who think
they've waited long enough and then cruise
slowly through long after yellow has turned
to red.

John Reece
Not an Intel spokesman

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From: Pete Johnson <[email-masked]>
Date: 25 Aug 1995 16:18:24 GMT

>hearing the world GUILTY is this: the word "FACING".
Here is the text of 21453(a):

21453.  (a) A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall
stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the
crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then
before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an
indication to proceed is shown, except as provided in subdivision
(b).

>Is it defensible? Sure, but you MUST know how to present the case!!!

It seems from the text of 21453(a) that facing the signal would only apply
if you had not passed any of the stopping points.  It would not seem reasonable
to think that you could stop at a line behind your current location when the
light changes to red and you are suddenly "facing" a red.

If you were required to stop on red, and being in the intersection while
the light turns, then the code covering yellow lights would mention this.
Here is the text of 21452.

21452.  (a) A driver facing a steady circular yellow or yellow arrow
signal is, by that signal, warned that the related green movement is
ending or that a red indication will be shown immediately
thereafter.
   (b) A pedestrian facing a steady circular yellow or a yellow arrow
signal, unless otherwise directed by a pedestrian control signal as
provided in Section 21456, is, by that signal, warned that there is
insufficient time to cross the roadway and shall not enter the
roadway.

>then you might get 21453(a).

What you describe here actually was part of 21452(b) as originally enacted.
V.C.1935 section 476(b) required vehicular traffic facing yellow to stop
before entering the nearest crosswalk or at a marked line, but if the stop
could not be made in safety, to be driven cautiously through the intersection.

These provisions were dropped by a 1945 amendment.

Finally, this of course only applies to California.  I have no idea what
the rules are in other states.  I would imagine that most officers would
not give you a ticket for entering on yellow, and then changing to red
while you were in the intersection.  In addition, I would imagine that
any officer who would issue a 21453(a) violation in this case would testify
to the judge that you entered on red regardless of the actual facts, and
the judge would not believe that you entered on yellow unless you had
some serious supporting evidence (ie. videotape).

-- 
Pete Johnson					[email-masked]
Silicon Engineering, Inc.			http://www.sei.com
269 Mt. Hermon Road, Suite 207			(408) 438-5331 x 111
Scotts Valley, CA 95066

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From: Pete Johnson <[email-masked]>
Date: 25 Aug 1995 16:18:24 GMT

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From: [email-masked] (KENNY MORSE)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 11:56:14

>some serious supporting evidence (ie. videotape).

Pete.....

Thanks for your ambitious post.

No, as I said.....it is enforced exactly as I laid it out.

If there is a trial, and there is a YELLOW light involved, the officer says
the words "Stale yellow" on the stand...not necessarily asserting that a
solid red was involved before the defendant entered the intersection.

Now, as you have suggested, there are defenses IF...big IF...you
know how to present a case, but, as you also said....when it comes
to your word against the officer....they come to court as a professional
with a badge and a uniform and no real reason to lie.  You, you come
as lying pond scum, with every reason in the world to lie your head off.

A court where one is virtually guilty until proven innocent has MEGA problems.
The court that is the opposite has Mega problems, so imagine the quagmire
of traffic court.  Most people have NO clue what to do, and on my homepage
next month, I will discuss How To Fight A Ticket in this system weighted 
against you.

Kenny Morse
Mr. Traffic

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From: [email-masked] (Robert Underwood)
Date: 22 Aug 1995 11:15:56 -0700

If the light is still yellow when you enter the intersection, you
did not run the red light.  In fact, if the other direction enters
the intersection before you've made it across, they have broken a
law.  Source: traffic school quiz given by the officer teaching the
class.  Yes, I said officer.

rob

-- 
*  Rob Underwood   *  Fleming House Alum '93  
*  [email-masked]
*  http://www.ece.ucsb.edu/student/grad/underwood/default.html

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From: [email-masked] (Adam Goldberg)
Date: 23 Aug 1995 02:18:18 GMT

> definition, you did indeed run a red light.

I know for a fact that the law in Michigan, anyway, is that you have
the right to _enter_ an intersection while the light is yellow; that
is, if it turns red over your head, you're ok.

Of course, it's also illegal to speed up to beat the red, so you can
always be cited for that.

Adam

--
"What?  No Geek Code!"

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From: [email-masked] (Dan Howell)
Date: 25 Aug 1995 01:09:26 GMT

> still running a red light?  BTW, it happened in SF.

This is correct.  If you were already in the intersection before the light
turned red, you did not violate VC 21453.  In court, it will be your word vs.
the cop's, so your strategy, if you decide to fight it, should be to cross-examine
the officer in such a way as to convince the judge that he did not observe your
vehicle first *entering* the intersection *after* the light turned red.  The
"Fight Your Ticket" book has some good cross-examination questions to use for
this purpose.

Be careful with your own testimony.  I saw one person get convicted because
she testified that she was driving 35 mph, entered the intersection before it
turned *yellow*, and observed the light turn *red* before she left the
intersection.  According to the officers testimony, the cross road was about
50 feet wide.  The yellow light would have had to have been less than 1 second
in length for her to have observed what she claimed at the speed she claimed.
Yellow lights are usually 3 seconds and the officer testified that the yellow
light in this case was working properly and was approximately 3 seconds.  The
judge therefore said that her testimony was unreliable and convicted her based
on the officers testimony.

By the way, don't confuse this with VC 22526, which prohibits entering an
intersection, even if the light is green, if there is not enough room to clear
the intersection.  This is the "anti-gridlock" law and it is not a moving violation
that goes on your record and does not count against you as a "point".

-- 
Dan Howell  <[email-masked]>