Respected Members, I would attempt to answer some of the questions raised by Smt .Napinnai. 1. Wearing of Sacred Thread and learning of Vedas had to be performed by all the 3 classes as per sastras, and not exclusively by Brahmins. (Only Sudras and Women were not allowed, reason being they had to serve other members of the society. ) 2. When I say this please do not jump to the conclusion and ask why one should serve other. The best answer to this available in Mumookshapdi, Thriumantra prakaranam sutram 52, where Swami explains that at any given point of time, service is enjoyable to one provided he respects and revers the other.In this way the Brahmins and Kshatriyas and vaisyas earned respect each other in protecting satyam and dharma. So it was working out good. 2.Consider Varnashrama Dharma as like Division of labor during modern times. In order to efficiently maintain a society with less social disparities, Varnasrama Dharma was practiced. 3. Varnasrama dharma was hailed as the 'most civilized way of running the society. Swami Desikan hails Sri Rama as 'Nija Varnasrama Dharma' - one who ruled his land as per 'Varnasrama Dharma' 3. Till the advent of Industrial revolution, none of the upper class(Brahmans and Kshatriyas) misused there position and exploited the next class. A Brahmin was not supposed to keep for the next day and Kshatriyas/Vaisyas had to protect his family. Since Brahmin need not worry about his family's upkeep, he could be devoid of anxiety and Fear and naturally this resulted in him earning respect in the society. 4.Kshatriyas were really committed to protectong there people and considered sacred to die for there land and people. As per Manu, he was the human representation of Lord Vishnu (Refer, any old commentary on Thriuvaimohzi 3rd pattu, "Thriu uday mannari kanil, Thirumalai, kandene ennum") . Ever since Kshatriyas lost believe in themselves (Due to Turk aggression) and started becoming avarice (Blame it on British, for buying these people and conferring them Rao bahadurs and trips to England..), the whole society crumpled. Once the Rajah , whose is the proctor of these Dharma, failed, all classes had to fail too. 5. Even though Pancaratra agamas talk about, birth based caste system(in detail),there was no much talk on birth based caste system in Smrthi vachanams.Pancatra agamas talk about inter caste marriages in detail and what profession one whould take if the is born out of an inter caste marriage. This was meant for correct social order. 6. No Sri Vaishnava acharya (including Pillai ulakarian) negated these. 6.Brahmin bashing had started in India only since 19th century(we can say from Ramalinga swami, Brathiyar etc), once the all the varnasrama Dharma failed. (Brahmin being main contributor for its failure). If we read Thriumangain Mannan , or Appar or Navukkurasar all of them had great respect for Brahmins of there time. Tholkappier was a Brahmin and most of the sangam literature was written by these 'Brahmins'. IF you read 'Parimel azhagar urai' of Thirukural (First known commentary of Thirukural), it was very supportive of Varnasrama Dharma and brings out clearly what was the mind of Thriuvalluvar in his kurals. 7.Christian missionaries could not convert Hindu masses in India so easily by talking 'Philosophy's (You better know the reason) to them. Hence they started writing/talking more about 'exploitation' and 'defects of caste system' and used as as the selling proposition in harvesting Christian faith in India. 8. Psedo Hindus who have lesser understanding of Smrithis were taken in to defensive by offensive of these 'Missionaries and try to define new order for Hindu society which was a confusing and away from the purport of law givers like Manu. 9. If all the varnasrama Dharma is lost, and there is chaos, if there is no way for exisitng masses for salvation?, Yes there is a way, says Parasara Maharishi in Sri Vishnu puranam.(also seconded by Sri VedaVyasa in Srimad Bhagavatam) Parasra says in Kali yuga(Women, sudras are all sadhus, because just by serving Lord and chating his names, they can attain salvation). IN the age of Kali, Nama sankeetanam would result in sidda suddi, which would result in ananya bhakthi and which in turn results in Saranagati. Lord, naturally had to give salvation to a surrendered soul. I am not sure if I answered any of your questions. I have simply written some points which I have heard from Acharyas in India. Dasan Kazhiyur M Narayanan ----- Original Message ----- From: "nappinnai_nc" <nappinnai_nc@xxxx> To: <ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 9:42 AM Subject: [ramanuja] Sri VaiShNavism and VarNAshrama Dharma > Sri: > Srimathe Ramanujaya nama: > > Humble pranams to you. As I have expressed umpteen number > of times that I am a beginner in our sampradayam,I would love to know > what "exactly is" the stand of SV with respect to varNAshrama Dharma. > I preseme that many devotees of this forum would have had the > opportunity to attend upanyAsams by great upanyAsakas and AcAryAs. It > is my humble request to those devotees to shed light on this subtle > topic. This post is not,in any way,connected/response to people who > have already expressed some views on this. Whatever contents that is > reflected here,has been in my mind for long and hence seek > clarification/answers from the perspective of "anuShTAnam" of SV > sampradAyam. : > > 1. What "exactly" Sri VaiShNavism targets as compared to the shruthi? > > 2. If one goes by EmperumAnAr's SriBhAshya statement on varNAshrama > Dharma,why not follow the same EmperumAnAr who "did not" make "any" > reference to AzhvArs and their works in all his samskrt works? So > should one reject AzhvArs outrightly?[Although AcArya Hrdhayam suthra > 65 declares that emperumAnAr wrote Sri BhAShya with the help > of dhivya prabandham only]. SriRangam Sri Narasimhachar swami,on Sri > BhAShya,said that EmperumanAr also has said that women and shUdrAs > are not allowed to learn. If this be the case,why do we see > NammAzhvAr and other AzhvArs wearing yagnyOpavItham in all dhivya > dhEsha sanniDhis? Is this not in direct conflict with Shruthi? > > I am sure if AzhvArs(4th and 5th varNAs) were baddha jIvatmas,they > would not have worn yagnyOpavItham while they were in this lIla > vibhUthi. If this yagnyOpavItham was adorned by them after they > attained mOksha(after gaining sArUpyam),then are there two shruthis > which are valid,one before attaining mOksha and one after attaining > mOksha? I have heard that when EmperumAnAr was young,he had put the > yagnyOpavItham for some of his friends who belonged to the > unfortunate varNAs. Is this true? > > 3. Every prapanna is a sri VaiShNava. What about the converse? Also > answer keeping in mind Sri PL's words:a person following karma,jnAna > and bhakti mArgas(who enjoy certain things) and those follow(or try > to) prapatti(who shudders to sleep with his own wife) and also Sri > ParAshara Bhattar's statement "an SV is superior to vEdhAnthin". > Sri ParAshara Bhattar,once by mistake addressed his wife as ammA and > the wife thus replied:"swami I am your wife and hence your servant". > sri Bhattar's reply was: "Oh,Did I address you as ammA(may be > perumAL's tiru uLLam)? okay,from now on I will treat you also like a > mother". > > If we strictly go by Sri PiLLai lOkAcAryA's "code of conduct for > prapanna",how many prapannas would be there in this world? > EmperumAnAr told UyyakkoNdAr that "one has to have a taste for > prapatti which in turn requires PerumAL's anugraham". Does this mean > that SriVaiShNavism,which is built on prapatti,is hard to impliment? > > 4. I am not talking about every brAhmaNA marrying someone outside his > caste! But I'm talking about a Sri VaiShNavan. Can a Sri VaiShNava > (brahmin/non brahmin)guy marry a SV(non brahmin/brahmin)gal? Someone > told me that "it can not be done"(and it was a shock for me because > till this day I have been telling my friends that Ramanuja > sampradAyam is the superset of all sets,encompasses every damn thing > in this Unierse blah blah blah). What is the point of marrying > a "name sake" SV Iyengar brahmin who questions:"why do you need to > know about the sampradAyam & God in detail at this age and also he > (worse than SisupAla) is jealous of attention given to God!)? Is not > zillion times better to marry a non-brahmin person(boy/girl) who > believes in our faith and wants to know about our sampradAyam? I > honestly do not know,how accurately Patricia Mumme presented Swami > Desikan's views in her book. According to the contents of the > book,Swami Desikan was of the view that "there is a distinction > between Brahmin devotee and shUdra devotee;and shudra devotee should > be given respect only as per varNAshrama Dharma". > > 5. I learnt kOil tiruvAymozhi from a bhAgavatha who is a telugu SV > (not a brahmin). I'm a brahmin because my ancestor is a brahmin by > birth/caste. Does Sri sampradAyam/SV-ism say that I(brahmin by > birth/caste or whatever) should give respect to the bhAgavatha(non- > brahmin) only "within" the grounds of varNAshrama Dharma? Are there > any written records that EmperumAnAr(brahmin) did not fall at > Tirukkacci nambi's feet(a shUdra)? This question is raised because I > have read posts claiming that even EmperumAnAr respected a bhAgavatha > as per varNAshrama Dharma only! > > 6. Is not this varNAshrama(that requires individual's effort through > bodily means and which also gives rise to ego) contrary to prapatti > which goes by shEshathvam and pArathanthriyam? This ego follows the > person like a shadow(in 99.999999999% case this is true) and does it > not stand in the way of shEshathvam? Is not SV built on the prapatti? > If so,why there is a need to give importance to varNAshrama,(since it > is difficult to develop "shEshathvam and pArathanthryam" through > karma,jnAna,bhakti mArgams and one in a kOti may succeed)? Please > address this from the stand point of AcArya Hrdhayam(sUthra 57- > 62,where Swami Azhagiya maNavALa perumAL nAyanAr declares the > greatness of NammAzhvAr over others viz., vAlmIki,vyAsa,rShis, > yOgis,munis..),Sri Vacana BhUShaNam and Mumukshuppadi. > > 7. There are many foreigners who are getting into the fold of our > sampradAyam by Sri Chinna Jeeyar swami which is contrary to the view > maintained by some people that "in our sampradAyam we don't preach or > spread". The "so called" 74 simhAsanAdhipathis were appointed by > EmperumAnar for this task only. > > Strictly speaking,if we go by Sri PiLLai lOkAcArya's Mumukshuppadi > (explanation for Carama slOkam),all the mArgams(by shruthi,smrthi > etc) other than prapatti,are "aDharmA" only. Correct me if I'm wrong. > I have put forth all the above questions because the main reason is,I > have observed in my extended family circle(who all come under AcArya > puruShA families only! one of my cousin is a disciple of Sai > Baba),that they have different views when it comes to talking about > SV sampradayam and practising it. Their behaviour is somewhat similar > to that of EmperumAnAr's wife towards Sri Tirukkaci Nambi. > > The second reason is personal. I come from a "double" AcArya puruSha > family(both maternal and paternal) and yet my parents are very very > very liberal in caste issues. My mother was more orthodox than my > father,used to tie only madisAru from day one of her marriage,would > not even eat in some AcArya puruShas houses(they eat onion and garlic > and the reason given is that these have medicinal value) because she > was very specific about food and also would not want to trouble > others unnecessarily. She enforced her orthodoxy only on us and not > on the outsiders. > > If Sri ParAshara Bhattar was the one who gave importance to the > beggars of SriRangam,then my father also follows the footsteps of Sri > Bhattar. If my mother had not sold her silver articles,my parents > would have fed the beggar in a silver utensil also(right now the > scenario in our house wrt beggar is foodin vAzha ilai and water in > stainless). My parents are alike in thoughts and we have been brought > up in the same atmosphere. My father would wear a "azhukku/dirty" > vEshti at home or even outside sometimes but would give generously > his "mayil kaN vEshti" to guests. Both my parents are weird > characters and I'm indebted to God for making me born to such > parents. Hence I am unable to understand the mentality of the people > (belonging to our sampradAyam) having a totally different view when > it comes to talking and practising Sri VaiShNavism. > > Kindly address these questions of mine,giving references from AcAryAs > works to elucidate the same so that I would know where exactly our > sampradAyam stands wrt varNAshrama Dharma. Last but not the least,let > us not forget the fact that, in this current age, only 0.000000001% > of the brAhmins(applies to other caste too) would strictly follow the > rules of varNAshrama Dharma. It is my conviction that the one sect > that divided into two is mainly,not because of doctrinal differences, > but due to varNAshrama Dharma. It is my guess that many would not > have liked Ramanuja accepting everybody(I have listened to my own > realatives' words:Ramanuja put nAmam/thirumaN for all passers-by!) > into the fold due to this conflicting views on varNAshrama and hence > would have divided and all these doctrinal differences as a "reason" > would have come much much later say one/two centuries after Sri > MaNavALa mAmunigaL's period. I could be absolutely wrong about this > (since there is no precise reason for the division of sect,it gives > me some freedom to speculate too!) and hence forgive for the same. > > Please kindly forgive if i,unintentionally, hurt anyone's feelings > and also sorry for the lengthy post(couldn't help it). > > AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam > NC Nappinnai > > > > > > > azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >
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