From rhonda_mcdonnell at hotmail.com Mon Jul 1 01:56:02 2002 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at hotmail.com (Rhonda McDonnell) Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 05:56:02 +0000 Subject: Percy Gravesite Message-ID: Steve: Please post the directions--I plan on being in that area next summer and would like to make a stop there. It sounds like others would be interested as well. Rhonda _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From karey at charter.net Mon Jul 1 13:52:28 2002 From: karey at charter.net (Karey L. Perkins) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:52:28 -0400 Subject: Some Random Thoughts, Largely Unrelated, Based on Previous Discussions and Readings References: Message-ID: <002801c22128$114e5570$0301000a@AFAC955012> Our listserv seems to have been quiet, philosophically that is, ever since our discussion of the Catholic priests -- too controversial? At any rate, in an effort to spark some more conversation, I wanted to post some thoughts. As I continue on with my reading of Percy (again, his philosophy is slower going than the fiction, but I'm making some progress), many observations related to previous comments we've made come to mind. Here are some of them, not necessarily related to each other, but pick and choose as you will: **1) Regarding Nikki's question a few weeks ago related to our discussion of "consciousness", and I don't remember it exactly, but something to the effect of, "Why bother with this conversation at all?" or rather, "What is the importance of this conversation?" that received only one or two replies: I wasn't sure if it was intended as a rhetorical point (i.e.: this conversation is unimportant), or if it was intended didactically (i.e.: here's something you should be thinking about first before you ramble on about this topic), or if it was intended as face-value question (i.e.: literally, why is this conversation important?)....but, I'll take it as the latter, and offer my observations: I think the topic and conversation, that is, Percy's idea of consciousness as it relates to language and "who" or "what" man is, as well as a materialistic or dualistic or monistic view of man, is extremely important. I think it is at the root of Percy's fiction, and that his "Theory of Man" drives all of his fiction. To decipher what that is is to unravel the DNA code of what he was saying, you could say. Percy seemed to write from a "plan," mapping out the plot and the book based on what he wanted to say philosophically, and sticking to that, unlike other authors like Flannery O'Connor, who may have had some kind of plan in the beginning but ended up letting the book write itself. Percy differentiated man from the animals (as a scientist, he understood the world - and items in the world - in terms of classification (finding similarities) and differentiation) based on his capacity for language -- symbol-mongering ability is an indication of consciousness, in Percy's mind. Symbol mongering ability, a triadic event, is also what creates a "world" as opposed to "environment" of merely behaviorist physical organisms relating in a stimulus-response dyadic mode. A world has "magic" and "myth." This is mostly from Message in the Bottle, but I found it interesting that Percy uses these words, as he was a scientist, but especially as it relates to a conversation with a physical-materialistic friend of mine, who believes the physical world is all there is -- when the body dies, consciousness ends -- then, upon further questioning, proceeded to describe "consciousness" as some kind of "magic" (same word as Percy) that arose as the physical world (and man) evolved. Another point: what man is, as would be described in a "Theory of Man" not only drives Percy's fiction and all of his interests, but it determines our purpose and meaning for living, and therefore, all our actions and decisions in how we live our lives. By the way, I mentioned the article on autism as it provided a scientific view of the mind, rather than just philosophical, and how language related to that, which relates to Percy's theories. That notwithstanding, I was interested to hear Wade's account of his illness, which seemed to me rather eerily similar to Percy's themes -- esp. in Thanatos Syndrome. Something's "wrong with the water"... or more accurately, in today's (postmodern) world, our means of sustenance, our world, is from anonymous sources -- our community is one created and provided by strangers, who provide us food and water, who create and build our homes and businesses, and we share all of that with other strangers. Great stuff for a novel -- but more true than Percy realized? **2) If Percy is a "monist" as he seems to be -- did he ever identify himself as such? If not, why not? **3) Percy and gender: Percy, like most good writers, was a product of his culture: a well-to-do, aristocratic Southern white male living in the latter half of the twentieth century (or rather, most of it, as he was born and raised in the early half, just wrote in the latter half) -- but his comments/views/themes/ideas rise above his demographics (and especially so for Percy as his concern was what it means to be human) to say something of importance to everyone. I think specifically here, as an example, of Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man, which was about a black Southern male, and while as a white female (not Southern), I could not identify with many of the SPECIFICS of his experience, because Ellison's work was true and good, it speaks on many levels of many truths about life, society, culture, what it means to be human (which is why it is a classic). All that is to say is that Percy's portrayal of women changes through the years, indicating that he was affected by his times -- and he had the attitude and view towards women that indicates his demographics. In "The Moviegoer" his female characters are flatter -- Kate is more well-developed, but Sharon is stereotyped and seen from a preppy Southern white male viewpoint (to stereotype about preppy Southern white men, that is). While she is true to type, she is an object. This is right after the fifties -- a decade where many intelligent women suffered from role restrictions (not just professional but cultural and social) and a decade which brought the inevitable sexual revolution of the sixties (it WAS a revolt, in fact). Remember, many intelligent female writers went crazy and killed themselves during this decade as they tried to stifle their intelligence and uniqueness to conform socially. "The Last Gentleman" doesn't improve much on female roles (and I don't really like any of the women in LG, though I liked Kate in MG). Women still are primarily just "objects" of the protagonists' emotional and sexual desire. The same in "Love in the Ruins," where we have three women who are objects of his desire -- but otherwise, largely insignificant and unimportant - remaining on the periphery (marginalized?). However, ironically, at the end of Percy's books, his protagonists find their resolution and "salvation" -- on earth, that is, and perhaps only temporary -- in the arms and home of a "good" woman. A "good" woman, for Percy, is practical, grounded, traditional, and sexually and morally conservative. In addition, these "good" women "call" Percy's heroes on their faults (chastise them)...they don't let them get away with anything. This is something of a motherly quality, so I'm wondering if any critics have written anything about a madonna (mother)-whore complex or theme in Percy's writing. Women are occasionally the carriers of the "fugue state" even more than the men, if they are not "good" as defined previously. Kate in MG, and Allison in SC. Perhaps Anna in Lancelot. I think this is when Percy is most successful in his portrayal of women. I think his other "type" of the good woman that his protagonists end up with is influenced so significantly by his culture that it has less universal truth than other things he has to say. The Second Coming is the only book (that I noticed) in which he writes at least part of it from a female point of view. This is his second to last book, and women are becoming more rounded, more realistic, and less objectified in Percy's writing, as the society in general in which Percy lives and writes becomes more liberated for women. What surprised me is that he wrote her (Allison's) point of view so well. I've chosen not to do the dissertation on Percy's female characters -- not only because there's already a book out (which I've not yet read) about that topic that probably says it better, but because I don't think that's the most important thing he has to say. But I do have a question for the listserv -- how many of us are women? I think female Percy fans are greatly the minority -- he appeals more to men, it has been my experience, despite the fact that he says something to everyone. **4) Percy's theology: It seems that Percy writes from a Christian existentialist viewpoint. Most of his books seem to be about deconstructing all of our illusions about ourselves -- our habits, lifestyles, goals, that we think are meaningful -- and deconstructing our "false" or temporary reasons for living or being in the world, which, I take it, is anything except God. While he doesn't mention God or Christ too much (God occasionally pops up, like Tom More "eating Christ" in LR, and Will Barrett searching for a sign of God in SC), the books are focusing on that place right before we find God -- before the leap -- when we realize what we ARE living for doesn't really work, isn't really what it's all about. That's all well and good. I agree with him whole-heartedly. But where I'm struggling is that, after presenting to us this nice Christian existentialist viewpoint, Percy has each of his characters end up with some "good woman" in an idyllic type Garden of Eden -- whether a cabin in Virginia (Lancelot) or a greenhouse community/business in NC (SC). His endings are more individual/couple in his first books (our hero with his woman secluded from the world), and end in a more communal Garden of Eden/"utopia" in later works (our hero and his woman creating the community that helps others). The only exception to this pattern is the Last Gentleman. Is this a contradiction in Percy's message? I'm not arguing that his protagonists should all end up as a prophet/hermit in the desert, alone with God, a voice crying out in the wilderness, having flung off the trappings of the world, but it seems that Percy could be saying the purpose in life, the road to bliss and sanity, is in settling down with a good woman in a leafy enclave and living a moral life. Where's God? **5) Percy's reading and the Internet: For an Internet project listing the books Percy has read, I would suggest beginning by flipping through each page of Message in the Bottle, and his other non-fiction too, but especially MB. He lists dozens of people he's read -- by no means a complete listing but a good place to start. **6) Books: I can find "Thief of Pierce" on the Internet, but can't find Ken Ketner's "His Glassy Essence" which was recommended earlier. Any ideas on how to get a hold of a copy? Just some thoughts. Karey Karey L. Perkins Professor of General Education DeVry University 2555 Northwinds Parkway Alpharetta, GA 30004 770-521-4900 Ext. 3527 www.atl.devry.edu/kperkins From bernard.collins at jhuapl.edu Mon Jul 1 14:51:23 2002 From: bernard.collins at jhuapl.edu (Skip Collins) Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 14:51:23 -0400 Subject: Some Random Thoughts, Largely Unrelated, Based on Previous Discussions and Readings In-Reply-To: <002801c22128$114e5570$0301000a@AFAC955012> References: <002801c22128$114e5570$0301000a@AFAC955012> Message-ID: <1025549489.22454.123.camel@collibf1.jhuapl.edu> On Mon, 2002-07-01 at 13:52, Karey L. Perkins wrote: > **6) Books: I can find "Thief of Pierce" on the Internet, but can't find > Ken Ketner's "His Glassy Essence" which was recommended earlier. > Any ideas on how to get a hold of a copy? Ken might not like this, but many used copies show up at bookfinder.com. Just search with Ketner in the author field and Glassy in the title field. sc From b9oky at TTACS.TTU.EDU Mon Jul 1 15:00:35 2002 From: b9oky at TTACS.TTU.EDU (Kenneth Ketner) Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 14:00:35 -0500 Subject: Some Random Thoughts, Largely Unrelated,Based on Previous Discussions and Readings References: <002801c22128$114e5570$0301000a@AFAC955012> Message-ID: <3D20A6D2.9E63C7F8@ttacs.ttu.edu> see http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=6Q4H7XP6TY&isbn=0826513131 "Karey L. Perkins" wrote: > > **6) Books: I can find "Thief of Pierce" on the Internet, but can't find > Ken Ketner's "His Glassy Essence" which was recommended earlier. > Any ideas on how to get a hold of a copy? > -- Kenneth L Ketner Paul Whitfield Horn Professor Institute for Studies in Pragmaticism Texas Tech University Lubbock, TX 79409-0002 806 742 3128 Office email: b9oky at ttacs.ttu.edu Home email: ketner at arisbeassociates.com Office website: http://www.pragmaticism.net Personal website: http://www.wyttynys.net From Nikkibar at aol.com Mon Jul 1 15:12:06 2002 From: Nikkibar at aol.com (Nikkibar at aol.com) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:12:06 EDT Subject: Some Random Thoughts, Largely Unrelated, Based on Previ... Message-ID: <62.21ebbcf9.2a520386@aol.com> Barnes and Noble should surely have it, but if not write to Ken Ketner at the addres above Nikki -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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