Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?

[Bill Ross]

Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?:

[Luke 21:12 MGNT] (12) πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων ἐπιβαλοῦσιν ἐφ᾽ ὑμᾶς τὰς χεῖρας αὐτῶν καὶ διώξουσιν παραδιδόντες εἰς τὰς συναγωγὰς καὶ φυλακάς ἀπαγομένους ἐπὶ βασιλεῖς καὶ ἡγεμόνας ἕνεκεν τοῦ ὀνόματός μου

Every last translation I could find has "before" but that doesn't make any sense to me in the context. Is there any grammatical reason why it is being translated as "before" and not "above"?

See usage 3 in BDAG:

③ marker of precedence in importance or rank (Pind. et al.; pap; Jos., Ant. 16, 187 πρὸ ἐκείνων; Just., A I, 2, 1 πρὸ τῆς ἑαυτοῦ ψυχῆς) πρὸ παντός above all, especially Pol 5:3. Also πρὸ πάντων (Ar. 9, 2; Just., D. 7, 3; POxy 292, 11; 294, 30) Js 5:12; 1 Pt 4:8; D 10:4.—DELG. M-M. EDNT. TW.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 864). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

[S Walch]

Don't believe "above" makes any sense in the context of Luke 21:10 onwards; "Before all these things (take place)" corresponds to what will occur in a future time as described in Luke 21:10-11, and what is mentioned in v12 onwards will occur "before" them, or "ahead of (the time when)" them if "before" doesn't quite work for you.

As for the grammatical reason; well, yes; because it's just πρὸ, not πρὸ πάντων (see James 5:12; 1 Pet 4:8). There's a reason why BDAG doesn't cite Luke 21:12 as an example of "above".

Edit:
BDAG works here as a good enough explanation:

πρό prep. w. gen. (Hom.+—S. the lit. s.v. ἀνά, beg.; also Rydbeck 62–77) ‘before’.
② marker of a point of time prior to another point of time, earlier than, before πρὸ τοῦ ἀρίστου before the meal (X., Cyr. 6, 2, 21) Lk 11:38. πρὸ τοῦ βαπτίσματος D 7:4a. πρὸ χειμῶνος 2 Ti 4:21. πρὸ τοῦ πάσχα J 11:55. πρὸ τῆς ἑορτῆς τοῦ πάσχα 13:1. πρὸ τοῦ κατακλυσμοῦ Mt 24:38. πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου J 17:24; Eph 1:4; 1 Pt 1:20. πρὸ ἡλίου καὶ σελήνης 2 Cl 14:1 (s. ἥλιος). πρὸ πάντων Col 1:17; cp. πρὸ τούτων πάντων Lk 21:12. πρὸ τῶν αἰώνων (Ps 54:20) 1 Cor 2:7; cp. IEph ins; IMg 6:1. πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2. πρὸ παντὸς τοῦ αἰῶνος Jd 25. πρὸ καιροῦ before the proper time or the last times (καιρός 3b; cp. Sir 51:30; Theodor. Prodr. 1, 281 H.) Mt 8:29; 1 Cor 4:5. πρὸ τούτων τῶν ἡμερῶν Ac 5:36; 21:38; Hm 4, 3, 4. πρὸ ἐτῶν 2 Cor 12:2. πρὸ τῆς μεταθέσεως Hb 11:5. Latinizing (on the use of the Rom. calendar among the Gks. s. Hahn 245; EBickerman, Chronology of the Ancient World2, ’80, 47–51; on calculation of a date, 43–44) πρὸ ἐννέα καλανδῶν Σεπτεμβρίων on August twenty-fourth IRo 10:3. πρὸ ἑπτὰ καλανδῶν Μαρτίων on February twenty-third MPol 21 (cp. IPriene 105, 23 πρὸ ἐννέα καλανδῶν Ὀκτωβρίων).—On the expr. πρὸ ἓξ ἡμερῶν τοῦ πάσχα J 12:1 s. ἡμέρα 2c and cp. Am 1:1; 4:7. πρὸ τριῶν ἡμερῶν τοῦ συλληφθῆναι αὐτόν three days before he was arrested MPol 5:2. πρὸ μιᾶς τῶν ἀζύμων one day before the feast of unleavened bread GPt 2:5 (Plut., Lucull. 510 [27, 9] πρὸ μιᾶς νωνῶν Ὀκτωβρίων, Publ. 101 [9, 8]; Appian, Bell. Civ. 2, 115 §479 πρὸ μιᾶς τοῦδε τοῦ βουλευτηρίου). πρὸ μιᾶς (sc. ἡμέρας [Polyaenus 7, 10 and Just., D. 27, 5 πρὸ μιᾶς ἡμέρας]; cp. Lucian, Alex. 46; Dositheus 40, 2; PGM 13, 350) one day before D 7:4b; the day before Hs 6, 5, 3.—Rydbeck 62–77; Mlt-Turner 260.—W. gen. of the personal pron. (PsSol 1:8 τὰ πρὸ αὐτῶν ἔθνη; Just., D. 16, 4 πρὸ αὐτοῦ; PTebt 61b, 384 [118/117 b.c.]) πρὸ ὑμῶν (Lev 18:28) Mt 5:12; cp. Ac 7:4 D. πρὸ ἐμοῦ (1 Macc 15:5) J 5:7; 10:8 (s. also 1 above); Ro 16:7; Gal 1:17 (s. AcPlCor 2:4). Cp. 1 Cl 19:1.—πρὸ τοῦ w. acc. and inf. (En 9:11; TestAbr A 9 p. 87, 10 [Stone p. 22]; ParJer 7:31; Just., D. 92, 3. Cp. B-D-F §403; Rob. 1074f) πρὸ τοῦ ὑμᾶς αἰτῆσαι Mt 6:8. Cp. Lk 2:21; 22:15; J 1:48; 13:19 (here the acc. is missing, but can easily be supplied); 17:5; Ac 23:15; Gal 2:12; 3:23; B 16:7.

[Bill Ross]

Compare with Matthew's version:

[Matthew 24:9 NASB20] (9) "Then they will hand you over to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

But what I'm really asking about is the grammar.

[Barry Hofstetter]

Compare with Matthew's version:

[Matthew 24:9 NASB20] (9) "Then they will hand you over to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

But what I'm really asking about is the grammar.

What about the grammar? πρό is simply a preposition which takes the genitive for its object. This is a matter of semantics and context. If every single translation renders "before" in a temporal sense, why do you think that is?

[Bill Ross]

Compare with Matthew's version:

[Matthew 24:9 NASB20] (9) "Then they will hand you over to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

But what I'm really asking about is the grammar.

What about the grammar? πρό is simply a preposition which takes the genitive for its object. This is a matter of semantics and context. If every single translation renders "before" in a temporal sense, why do you think that is?

That sounds a tad bit like an ad populum argument. Sometimes the blind just follow the crowd into the ditch. It gives me pause when I'm alone in a position, which is why I came here to see if I was missing anything with regard to the grammar. But since, as you seem to be saying, it has nothing to do with the grammar, I think I can be confident that my reading is legitimate. Thank you. The question of what the passage means is not the subject here, on this site. If, however, you want to discuss that you might want to read the post where I discuss the meaning derived from context:

https://www.quora.com/Therefore-put-on- ... ll-Ross-22

Thanks again, and have a great day.

[Barry Hofstetter]

Compare with Matthew's version:



But what I'm really asking about is the grammar.

What about the grammar? πρό is simply a preposition which takes the genitive for its object. This is a matter of semantics and context. If every single translation renders "before" in a temporal sense, why do you think that is?

That sounds a tad bit like an ad populum argument. Sometimes the blind just follow the crowd into the ditch. It gives me pause when I'm alone in a position, which is why I came here to see if I was missing anything with regard to the grammar. But since, as you seem to be saying, it has nothing to do with the grammar, I think I can be confident that my reading is legitimate. Thank you. The question of what the passage means is not the subject here, on this site. If, however, you want to discuss that you might want to read the post where I discuss the meaning derived from context:

https://www.quora.com/Therefore-put-on- ... ll-Ross-22

Thanks again, and have a great day.

No, I don't think so, not ad populum. Context makes it clear that it's a temporal reference, and so it's always been read. Even Jerome reads "ante" here Sed ante haec omnia... You appear to be committing the lexical fallacy here, choosing a meaning which accords with your preference rather than the context.

[Bill Ross]

As I said, you were helpful concerning the grammar question.

[Stephen Carlson]

Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?:

[Luke 21:12 MGNT] (12) πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων ἐπιβαλοῦσιν ἐφ᾽ ὑμᾶς τὰς χεῖρας αὐτῶν καὶ διώξουσιν παραδιδόντες εἰς τὰς συναγωγὰς καὶ φυλακάς ἀπαγομένους ἐπὶ βασιλεῖς καὶ ἡγεμόνας ἕνεκεν τοῦ ὀνόματός μου

Every last translation I could find has "before" but that doesn't make any sense to me in the context. Is there any grammatical reason why it is being translated as "before" and not "above"?

πρό is translated as “before” because that it what it basically and usually means. It can of course be translated with other words when the context warrants. For the rendering “above” to be a valid translation, that can only happen for a specific idiom when the πάντων or παντός object is non-referential. In Luke 21:12, on other hand, the inclusion of τούτων makes the prepositional object referential, so we don’t have an instance of the idiom and therefore no valid reason to translate as “above.”

In general, the listing of various glosses for a preposition in a lexicon is not a license to pick any one of them willy-nilly. Some of the glosses are specific to the exact form of the words that follow the preposition. Those who read a lot of Greek (e.g., Barry and all the translators for the big translations) have reached a point where they are able to recognize this automatically, so until your Greek is as good as theirs, so you should trust them when they are in unanimous agreement.

[Stephen Carlson]

Had the author used the word πρίν I would agree with you. But πρὸ used in conjunction with πάντων is well attested as referring to "above all":

These aren’t counter-examples to the explanation I provided.

[Bill Ross]

Had the author used the word πρίν I would agree with you. But πρὸ used in conjunction with πάντων is well attested as referring to "above all":

These aren’t counter-examples to the explanation I provided.

Eh?