Acts 21:25

[James Spinti]

Part of the issue might be difference in subject matter. Without looking at the occurrences in detail, it's hard to know.

I know that's not a good answer, but I don't have the time right now to dig into it any deeper. Maybe a good commentary that touches on the language, like an ICC one, or F.F. Bruce's Acts of the Apostles, or the Baylor series...

James

[Brian Gould]

Thank you for your suggestion, James. I'll see what I can find.

[Gustav Berloty]

what does “having judging” mean? How can you translate κρίναντες with two participles? Wouldn’t you really mean “having judged”?

Absolutely, that's an error I made, I meant "having judged".

In the middle voice, it means “to be on one’s guard against, look out for, avoid” (BDAG) and takes an object in the accusative. In this case, the object is the compound τό τε εἰδωλόθυτον καὶ αἷμα καὶ πνικτὸν καὶ πορνείαν, saying what they should avoid or be careful not to engage in.

My assumption is that φυλάσσω in the middle voice can mean "to keep for/by itself" according to what mean/express the middle voice in general. I'm not saying that it could not also mean “to be on one’s guard against, look out for, avoid”, but I suppose it can basically/litteraly mean "to keep for/by itself". Am I wrong ? If I am, how ancient greek speakers would express "to keep for/by itself" ? Would you tell me they couldn't use φυλάσσω in the middle voice for that ?

The way that you have translated θυλάσσεσθαι αὐτούς as “keep to themselves” almost sounds like you think that idolatry should be kept a secret thing and not made public.

Yes I understand, that's not what I meant, the meaning I wanted to express by my translation is that the nations kept thoses practices to themselves in the sense of for themselves.
But having read again the text, I would say that the middle voice would be better translated as follow : the nations kept thoses practices by themselves.
At the end of the day, "keeping those practices for/by themselves" would probably be a simple synonymous with "keeping those practices", as such synonymous can happen in French (as far as I know) (e.g, "Qu'il se le garde!", "Qu'il le garde!") or simply as deponent verbs do (I'm not saying that φυλάσσω is a deponent verb, it's not one).

Have you studied Greek from any textbooks or are you just guessing at it?

I studied it from both textbook and spoken koine greek, I'm not guessing it, so I've simply made basic english mistakes in my translation (I'm not a native english speaker), as the follow quotation can testify about (btw thanks Brian Gould for pointing this) :

The word “both” can’t be correctly used here, because it introduces a list of three things: meat that has been sacrificed to idols, blood, and the meat of animals that were slaughtered by strangling. (Or even four things if you include πορνεία.)

So, here would be the corrected/improved english translation :

And concerning those of the nations who have believed, we sent an epistle, having judged them not keeping such thing, except keeping by themselves idol-sacrifices, and blood, and a strangled thing, and whoredom.

Gustav.

[Jason Hare]

My assumption is that φυλάσσω in the middle voice can mean "to keep for/by itself" according to what mean/express the middle voice in general. I'm not saying that it could not also mean “to be on one’s guard against, look out for, avoid”, but I suppose it can basically/litteraly mean "to keep for/by itself". Am I wrong ? If I am, how ancient greek speakers would express "to keep for/by itself" ? Would you tell me they couldn't use φυλάσσω in the middle voice for that ?

Again, you would do best to check a good dictionary, like A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000) by Bauer, Danker, Arndt, and Gingrich (BDAG). It means “avoid, keep yourself away from.”

Yes I understand, that's not what I meant, the meaning I wanted to express by my translation is that the nations kept thoses practices to themselves in the sense of for themselves.
But having read again the text, I would say that the middle voice would be better translated as follow : the nations kept thoses practices by themselves.
At the end of the day, "keeping those practices for/by themselves" would probably be a simple synonymous with "keeping those practices", as such synonymous can happen in French (as far as I know) (e.g, "Qu'il se le garde!", "Qu'il le garde!") or simply as deponent verbs do (I'm not saying that φυλάσσω is a deponent verb, it's not one).

You are conveying exactly the OPPOSITE meaning of what the apostles wanted to pass on to the non-Jewish believers. They wanted to convey that they should not feel burdened to keep the Torah except that they must not engage in idolatry, eating sacrificed food, eating blood, eating strangled meats, or fornication. They wanted them NOT to do these things, not to KEEP THEM FOR THEMSELVES. That isn’t the meaning of the text, and you’re interpreting it in the opposite of its real meaning.

I studied it from both textbook and spoken koine greek, I'm not guessing it, so I've simply made basic english mistakes in my translation (I'm not a native english speaker), as the follow quotation can testify about (btw thanks Brian Gould for pointing this) :

The word “both” can’t be correctly used here, because it introduces a list of three things: meat that has been sacrificed to idols, blood, and the meat of animals that were slaughtered by strangling. (Or even four things if you include πορνεία.)

So, here would be the corrected/improved english translation :

And concerning those of the nations who have believed, we sent an epistle, having judged them not keeping such thing, except keeping by themselves idol-sacrifices, and blood, and a strangled thing, and whoredom.

Gustav.

Still just plain wrong. It cannot be “keeping by themselves.” This just is not the meaning of the phrase. I’m sorry. This translation is not acceptable or accurate by any standard.

[Eeli Kaikkonen]

My assumption is that φυλάσσω in the middle voice can mean "to keep for/by itself" according to what mean/express the middle voice in general.

You make two mistakes here.

First, that's not what middle voice means. The current majority view (of those who have kept themselves informed about advances in the field) is that medium-passive voice (indeed, one voice, not two!) marks some kind of "subject affectedness". This is probably simplified, but helpful and near enough for many purposes. In this word, φυλάσσω in its middle form, this can be seen in the dictionary meaning of the word in this form: avoiding or being on guard happens in the grammatical subject and/or affects the subject.

Second, you fall into some kind of exegetical fallacy trap. The meaning of the word can't reliably be deduced from external or formal factors, from something else than how it's actually used in the language. The good lexicons are made by observing usage. You think that you can just add one possible meaning -- and even then, a wrong one -- of a grammatical form of a word to the "basic" form and meaning of that word and get the right meaning as the result. But that's not how language works. Just find several middle voice forms in a good lexicon and make observations. You'll notice that you just can't jump to the middle meaning from the active meaning in many cases. Actually, in most of the cases where the middle form is mentioned explicitly its meaning can't be simply deduced directly from the meaning of the active form of the same word whenever the active form exists. The meaning, however, makes sense when you understand what "subject affectedness" is and in which ways it is manifested.

[Gustav Berloty]

You are conveying exactly the OPPOSITE meaning of what the apostles wanted to pass on to the non-Jewish believers. They wanted to convey that they should not feel burdened to keep the Torah except that they must not engage in idolatry, eating sacrificed food, eating blood, eating strangled meats, or fornication. They wanted them NOT to do these things, not to KEEP THEM FOR THEMSELVES. That isn’t the meaning of the text, and you’re interpreting it in the opposite of its real meaning.

What I wanted to express with the translation I gave was not that the apostles wanted the non-Jewish believers to do these things (because what would be the sense of it regarding the New Testament context? nothing, right..?). No, the meaning of the translation would rather be that the apostles had judged the nations to do these things by themselves, and therefore ask them in the epistle (cf. Acts 15:18-21, 28) to not do them.

The way you read the translation is one way to read it but, as you said it, this way of reading it makes no sense, the other way to read it is normally the way I've just shared in this message by saying that the apostles had judged the nations to do these things by themselves.

that's not what middle voice means

I highly doubt to be not able to find a ressource (or some) saying what I've said concerning the middle voice..

[Jason Hare]

If you want to include “self” in the middle, the basic meaning of φυλάσσειν is “to guard.” You could say that it means “watch yourself” or “guard yourself” + acc. of respect. I don’t know if it’s just your English that keeps you from hearing how “keep x for yourself” sounds exactly the opposite of what the Apostles were intending here. This corresponds, by the way, to Hebrew שְׁמֹר “guard” and הִשָּׁ֫מֶר לְךָ “beware, be on guard (for yourself).” There is nothing weird going on here, and in neither Hebrew nor Greek does it mean anything about keeping something for oneself or for one’s ethnic affiliation. That just is not the meaning of the word.

[Gustav Berloty]

Well, here I've tried to make the translation clearer :

And concerning those of the nations who have believed, we sent an epistle, having judged them not keeping such thing except [having judged them] keeping by themselves idol-sacrifices, and blood, and a strangled thing, and whoredom.

I hope it will be easier to see the following reading : the apostles judged the nations as doing idol-sacrifices, and "blood", and "a strangled thing", and whoredom, and therefore ask them in the epistle (cf. Acts 15:18-21, 28) to not do those things [anymore].

[Jason Hare]

Well, here I've tried to make the translation clearer :

And concerning those of the nations who have believed, we sent an epistle, having judged them not keeping such thing except [having judged them] keeping by themselves idol-sacrifices, and blood, and a strangled thing, and whoredom.

I hope it will be easier to see the following reading : the apostles judged the nations as doing idol-sacrifices, and blood, and a strangled thing, and whoredom, and therefore ask them in the epistle (cf. Acts 15:18-21, 28) to not do those things [anymore].

I’m having a hard time understanding how you keep going on with this. I’m just at a loss. It means “to avoid.” That’s what it means. I don’t know why you keep on saying the same thing that is the OPPOSITE of what it means! The Apostles are telling them that their decision for the non-Jews is that they not keep the Torah restrictions but that they must indeed avoid doing certain things that they may have been accustomed to doing before becoming believers. They are giving their opinion regarding what non-Jewish believers are responsible for observing.

[Gustav Berloty]

I’m having a hard time understanding how you keep going on with this. I’m just at a loss. It means “to avoid.” That’s what it means. I don’t know why you keep on saying the same thing that is the OPPOSITE of what it means!

You don't seem to have checked dictionnaries.

Thayer (2.b) (https://biblehub.com/greek/5442.htm) and Middle Liddell (C.I,2,3,4,5) (https://lsj.gr/wiki/φυλάσσω) confirm my thought.

Matthew 19:20, Mark 10:20, Luke 18:21, Exodus 12:17, Leviticus 18:4, 20:8, 22, 26:3, "and many other passages".

You have astounded me.