Jabberwocky -- noch einmal!

[cwconrad]

Since we're no longer talking about συνεπληρούντο (for "crying out loud"!), let's move it someplace else, please.

No interest in corpses here, but seminal ideas are always fresh. I mean, think of the mind-expanding, vocabulary building, expression enriching possibilities of relaying the Hunting of the Snark (http://literature.org/authors/carroll-l ... er-01.html) to a Koine Greek audience! Of being assigned the task to appear each day at ἡ σχολή in 2nd century Corinth with the next stanza from the Τὸ Σνάρκ! Seriously, who could resist checking every day to read the latest installment? And who could honestly say that “Ἰάββερβοκ” or "φρούμiους Βάνδερσνατ" was already part of his or her vocabulary?

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

I, at least, would never dare to touch that piece of genius, but …with apologies to the great genius, and to Greek grammarians everywhere:

Προσέχετε ἀπὸ τῶν Ἰάββερβοκ, υἱέ μου
Αἱ σιαγόνες αἵ δάκνουσιν, οἱ ὄνυχες οἲ κρατοῦσιν
Βλέπετε τὸ πετεινὸν τὸ Ἰούβιουβ, και ἐκκλίνετε
ἀπὸ τὼν ὁ φρούμiους Βάνδερσνατ

(http://www.jabberwocky.com/carroll/jabb ... wocky.html)

Jonathan's "stick around" is looking more prophetic every post!

We've been there, done that ...
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... 07471.html

ἦν βρίλλιγ, αἱ δ’ ἀποστροφαί
γυρῶσαι Οὐάβον ἤστραπτον·
ἡσύχασαν μὲν βόργοβοι,
μωμρεῖς δ’ ἐξέστησαν.

Not very elegant, but that was eighteen years ago -- originally a Saturday afternoon in December of 1996.

[Thomas Dolhanty]

And, with some improvements, I hope (please comment freely):

Πρόσεχε ἀπὸ τοῦ Ἰάββερβοκ, υἱέ μου

Αἱ σιαγόνες αἵ δάκνουσιν, οἱ ὄνυχες οἲ κρατοῦσιν

Βλέπε τὸ πετεινὸν τὸ Ἰούβιουβ, και ἐκκλίνετε

Ἀπὸ τοῦ φρουμοῦ Βάνδερσνατ

[cwconrad]

And, with some improvements, I hope (please comment freely):

Πρόσεχε ἀπὸ τοῦ Ἰάββερβοκ, υἱέ μου

Αἱ σιαγόνες αἵ δάκνουσιν, οἱ ὄνυχες οἲ κρατοῦσιν

Βλέπε τὸ πετεινὸν τὸ Ἰούβιουβ, και ἐκκλίνετε

Ἀπὸ τοῦ φρουμοῦ Βάνδερσνατ

My own problem with exploring versification in ancient Greek is with rhythms; I can't help looking for some traditional form of rhythm, be it dactylic, iambic, trochaic, anapestic; iambic and trochaic rhythms might be best here -- but, of course, there aren't really any "rules" that have to be followed. It's a matter of preferences; my own preference is for a consistent rhythm. I like the rhythm of your second line, which has a sort of dactylic ring to it.

[Thomas Dolhanty]

My own problem with exploring versification in ancient Greek is with rhythms; I can't help looking for some traditional form of rhythm, be it dactylic, iambic, trochaic, anapestic; iambic and trochaic rhythms might be best here -- but, of course, there aren't really any "rules" that have to be followed. It's a matter of preferences; my own preference is for a consistent rhythm. I like the rhythm of your second line, which has a sort of dactylic ring to it.

I have some familiarity with Hebrew poetry where there is rhythm, but certainly not the range that exists in English literature. Rhyme is a very minor element in Hebrew, but there is much emphasis on structure like parallelism, chiastic arrangements, and even acrostic arrangements. Also, there is often subtle wordplay and sometimes not-so-subtle, as in the last strophe of Isaiah's Song of the Vineyard (Isa 5:1-7)

he looked for justice מִשְׁפָּט - mišpāṭ (sound = mish•pat)
but, behold murder, מִשְׂפָּח - miśpāḥ (sound = mis•pak)
for righteousness (צְדָקָה) - ṣǝdāqāh (sound = tze•da•ka)
but, behold - a cry of distress, (צְעָקָה) – ṣǝʿāqāh (sound = tze•a•ka)

Does Greek poetry use rhyme extensively? Are there set and well developed rhythm patterns as in English? I presume there is much economy of words as with any poetry. What distinguishes Greek poetry?

[cwconrad]

Does Greek poetry use rhyme extensively? Are there set and well developed rhythm patterns as in English? I presume there is much economy of words as with any poetry. What distinguishes Greek poetry?

Perhaps one helpful intro to Greek verse and its rhythm is this: http://www.aoidoi.org/articles/meter/intro.pdf

To get at what I’m trying to suggest, you might look at some other attempts to carry over the extraordinary rhythms and sounds of Lewis Carroll’s little gem in various languages http://www76.pair.com/keithlim/jabberwo ... index.html

One of them from that site is this nice bit in German; like the English original of Lewis Carroll, it is in iambic rhythm. I only cite the opening verses:

Robert Scott

Es brillig war. Die schlichte Toven
Wirrten und wimmelten in Waben;
Und aller-mümsige Burggoven
Die mohmen Räth' ausgraben.

»Bewahre doch vor Jammerwoch!
Die Zähne knirschen, Krallen kratzen!
Bewahr' vor Jubjub-Vogel, vor
Frumiösen Banderschntzchen!«

Here’s a Latin version from the same site; this one’s set in the traditional ancient elegiac couplet, recognizable by one who's read Ovid's Amores or the last third of the corpus of Catullus:

Mors Iabrochii

Augustus A. Vansittart

Coesper erat: tunc lubriciles ultravia circum
Urgebant gyros gimbiculosque tophi;
Moestenui visae borogovides ire meatu;
Et profugi gemitus exgrabuere rathae.

O fuge Iabrochium, sanguis meus! Ille recurvis
Unguibus, estque avidis dentibus ille minax.
Ububae fuge cautus avis vim, gnate! Neque unquam
Faedarpax contra te frumiousus eat!

[Thomas Dolhanty]

My own problem with exploring versification in ancient Greek is with rhythms; I can't help looking for some traditional form of rhythm, be it dactylic, iambic, trochaic, anapestic; iambic and trochaic rhythms might be best here -- but, of course, there aren't really any "rules" that have to be followed. It's a matter of preferences; my own preference is for a consistent rhythm. I like the rhythm of your second line, which has a sort of dactylic ring to it.

Yes. I agree. The metre is such an integral part of the whole, that it must be there - at least some harmony or intentional and thoughtful disharmony. Of course for me, it is still a bit like the 16 year old who exclaims, "You mean I have to control the gas, work the clutch, steer the vehicle, AND shift gears too?

Thank you for the above. I need to mull it over a bit - play around with it a bit.