Phil 1:14 ἐν κυρίῳ

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KimmoHuovila
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Re: Phil 1:14

Post by KimmoHuovila »

Jason Hare wrote: But what about similar expressions throughout the Greek text? Does that not have any importance to you?
Sure. That's precisely why I looked at the expression ἀδελφος ἐν Κυρίῳ (and found it to be rare, at least within the NT).

Which way do you think similar expressions throughout the Greek text argue? Τῶν ἀδελφών ἐν Κυρίῳ or ἐν Κυρίῳ πεποιθότας?
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: Phil 1:14

Post by Stephen Carlson »

KimmoHuovila wrote:καὶ τοὺς πλείονας τῶν ἀδελφών πεποιθότας τοῖς δεσμοῖς μου

How is ἐν κυρίῳ to be taken?
KimmoHuovila wrote:If we take it with πεποιθότας, why is it in the focal position? "the confidence most brothers have received from my imprisonment is in the Lord"? "most brothers are convinced that my imprisonment is in the Lord"?
For this option, ἐν κυρίῳ relates to the participle πεποιθότας, not the later dative τοῖς δεσμοῖς μου, as if: "most brothers are convinced in the Lord by my imprisonment"?

Looking around at the various translations, I have noticed that they are split on how to construe ἐν κυρίῳ.

Stephen
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Jason Hare
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Re: Phil 1:14

Post by Jason Hare »

KimmoHuovila wrote:
Jason Hare wrote: But what about similar expressions throughout the Greek text? Does that not have any importance to you?
Sure. That's precisely why I looked at the expression ἀδελφος ἐν Κυρίῳ (and found it to be rare, at least within the NT).

Which way do you think similar expressions throughout the Greek text argue? Τῶν ἀδελφών ἐν Κυρίῳ or ἐν Κυρίῳ πεποιθότας?
What I mentioned as similar expressions (such as ἐν Χριστῷ, ἐν Ἰησοῦ, ἐν αὐτῷ, etc.) that appear in the text, not just the one expression. It's quite clear that these are used adjectivally all over the place.

I think it's quite clear that it's "brothers in the Lord."
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KimmoHuovila
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Re: Phil 1:14

Post by KimmoHuovila »

Stephen,

You are right. Thanks for the correction. I should have linked ἐν κυρίῳ with what follows, not limited to πεποιθότας, as I gave initially two options. Your translation does not specifically mark "in the Lord" as focal, though. Not that translations always should mark foci, but here we are talking about focus, so it could help.

Jason,

Yes, I understand what you are saying about the adverbials. However, ἀδελφός is rarely qualified by any of these when used of a fellow believer.
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Re: Phil 1:14

Post by Jason Hare »

KimmoHuovila wrote:Jason,

Yes, I understand what you are saying about the adverbials. However, ἀδελφός is rarely qualified by any of these when used of a fellow believer.
I didn't mention adverbials. I stated that this is an adjectival phrase.

"the brothers" - which brothers? - "the ones in the Lord"

In classical Greek, this would be (using the genitive of the original) either τῶν ἀδελφῶν τῶν ἐν (τῷ) κυρίῳ or τῶν ἐν (τῷ) κυρίῳ ἀδελφῶν. The Koine has this adjective phrase sometimes outside of the construction (technically in the "predicate position") even though it's used as a description/modifier. τῶν ἀδελφῶν ἐν κυρίῳ very naturally reads "the brothers in the Lord," simply missing the second τῶν, which is common in Koine.

Could you more completely spell out your alternative and demonstrate why you think it's even worth considering? I'll try to piece it together in the way that you're looking at it later, but I'm about to head over to Tel Aviv and take in the protesters' message. I need to jump in the shower and go catch a taxi.

Regards,
Jason
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: Phil 1:14

Post by Stephen Carlson »

KimmoHuovila wrote:Your translation does not specifically mark "in the Lord" as focal, though. Not that translations always should mark foci, but here we are talking about focus, so it could help.
You mean like: "As for most of the brothers, it is in the Lord that they have confidence in my chains"?

Stephen
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David Lim
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Re: Phil 1:14

Post by David Lim »

KimmoHuovila wrote:David,

You don't think πίστος ἐν κυρίῳ can mean 'believing in the Lord'?
I think "πιστος εν κυριω" can mean "faithful in [the] lord" in a predicate with "εν κυριω" modifying the verb and not "πιστος" or as it is where both "πιστος" and "εν κυριω" are understood as adjectives modifying the same implicit noun ("faithful [one] in [the] lord"). I believe a participle of "πιστευω" is the normal way to say "[one] who believes in [the] lord". Likewise "πιστοις αδελφοις εν χριστω" has both "πιστοις" and "εν χριστω" modifying "αδελφοις" according to how I read it.
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Re: Phil 1:14

Post by MAubrey »

David Lim wrote:Actually even in that case I see the prepositional clause "in Christ" in "the brothers are faithful in Christ" to modify the verb "are" rather than "faithful". In other words: "the brothers are faithful".. how (in what way or by what means) are they faithful? "in Christ".
In English, one might say that, but that's not the case in Greek were the verb in such a clause is completely optional--and even in English that's not the standard view of predicate adjectives if you look at the grammars. Linking verbs are simply not the same as full verbs.
KimmoHuovila wrote:Yes, I understand what you are saying about the adverbials. However, ἀδελφός is rarely qualified by any of these when used of a fellow believer.
Kimmo, I think you're placing too much stock on the numbers. I'm not sure that they're relevant here. If you look at the Greek fathers, you're going to find that native speakers assume implicitly that ἀδελφῶν and ἐν κυρίῳ go together.
Jason Hare wrote:Could you more completely spell out your alternative and demonstrate why you think it's even worth considering?
It's been a debated issue in the commentaries with a number of highly respected commentators (surprisingly) preferring ἐν κυρίῳ to modify the verb (e.g. Lightfoot).
Mike Aubrey, Linguist
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KimmoHuovila
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Re: Phil 1:14

Post by KimmoHuovila »

Jason Hare wrote:
KimmoHuovila wrote:Jason,

Yes, I understand what you are saying about the adverbials. However, ἀδελφός is rarely qualified by any of these when used of a fellow believer.
I didn't mention adverbials. I stated that this is an adjectival phrase.

"the brothers" - which brothers? - "the ones in the Lord"

In classical Greek, this would be (using the genitive of the original) either τῶν ἀδελφῶν τῶν ἐν (τῷ) κυρίῳ or τῶν ἐν (τῷ) κυρίῳ ἀδελφῶν. The Koine has this adjective phrase sometimes outside of the construction (technically in the "predicate position") even though it's used as a description/modifier. τῶν ἀδελφῶν ἐν κυρίῳ very naturally reads "the brothers in the Lord," simply missing the second τῶν, which is common in Koine.

Could you more completely spell out your alternative and demonstrate why you think it's even worth considering? I'll try to piece it together in the way that you're looking at it later, but I'm about to head over to Tel Aviv and take in the protesters' message. I need to jump in the shower and go catch a taxi.

Regards,
Jason
Yes, you said adjectival phrase, sorry about that.

Your view makes sense. Despite the fact that further qualification of the brothers is rare, it would not be strange. The grammar in your view is ordinary.

The idea that "in the Lord" is "emphatic" or focal is found in many commentaries, like Mike noted. I am trying to see what sense to make of it in this context.

As you asked for more detailed explanations of alternatives, I try to offer some suggestions. I do not claim that these are viable.

The dative has often been taken as a cause of confidence. Doing a quick search, I could not find parallels for this use of dative with the verb, so I wonder if it should rather be taken as confidence or trust for something.

(1) "most of the brothers are convinced that my imprisonment is "in the Lord" (however that phrase is taken in the context). We could see an ellipsis here ([τοὺς πλείονας τῶν ἀδελφῶν] [ἐν κυρίῳ πεποιθότας τοῖς δεσμοῖς μου εἶναι]).
2. Cor 10:7 "εἴ τις πέποιθεν ἑαυτοῷ Χριστοῦ εἶναι" is a parallel for the construction πέποιθα + dative with a predicate expression with a meaning 'trust that dative is predicate"
(2) Presupposing "Most of the brothers have confidence [because of/for] my chains", with the focus that this confidence is in the Lord. "the confidence most brothers [have for / have received from] my imprisonment is in the Lord"
(3) "It is in the Lord most of the brothers trust for my chains"

Suggestion (2) seems problematic to me in that it presupposes that most brothers gained confidence because of the chains. I don't see much contextual support for such a presupposition. Rather it seems to be Paul's assertion instead of presupposition.

I am not sure that (1) or (3) are free from problems, either.
sccarlson wrote: You mean like: "As for most of the brothers, it is in the Lord that they have confidence in my chains"?
Yes, now the focus is clearly marked. The double 'in' does not differentiate between the roles, though. "As for most of the brothers, it is in the Lord that they have confidence for my chains"? The question is, would this make sense in the context.
MAubrey wrote:
Kimmo, I think you're placing too much stock on the numbers. I'm not sure that they're relevant here. If you look at the Greek fathers, you're going to find that native speakers assume implicitly that ἀδελφῶν and ἐν κυρίῳ go together.
I agree that conceptually they go together. I also agree native speakers implicitly put the two together. I do think that the numbers are enough to show that the prepositional phrase was not needed for disambiguation or clarification (the meaning of blood relatives would hardly have crossed the minds of the readers). Do you see any signifigance in the choice to include or exclude the prepositional phrase? Many linguists believe choice implies meaning. I am not trying to get too much of this. I am aware that the choice may carry quite little meaning here.

The main result of this exchange so far is that no one has been willing or able to put together any serious argument to say that contextually ἐν κυρίῳ even could be taken together with what follows. Thank you all for the discussion so far.
Kimmo Huovila
Tony Pope
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Re: Phil 1:14

Post by Tony Pope »

KimmoHuovila wrote: Tony,
...
I suspect that many commentators have not tried to really explain the emphasis or focus. Vague emphasis may be often used just as a cop-out in order not to really explain the word order. As you noticed, the reason may not be immediately clear.
Yes, indeed, most commentators unfortunately do not distinguish between emphasis and focus.
KimmoHuovila wrote: I try to see if there is a plausible way to read this passage connecting the ἐν κυρίῳ with what follows
I just thought it was worth pointing out that the collocation of πέποιθα etc with ἐν κυρίῳ occurs elsewhere in Paul's writings. How a native speaker interprets a sentence is surely partly influenced by the collocations he is used to reading.

If you study ἐν χριστῷ and ἐν κυρίῳ it's noticeable that ἐν κυρίῳ is used less commonly than ἐν χριστῷ. I subscribe to the view that the two nouns are titles not proper names, and it then becomes interesting to try and find reasons why one is used rather than the other. I have not read all the literature but I have observed that ἐν κυρίῳ is often used in a context of service to the Master/Lord or being under the Master/Lord's authority. At least in some passages this seems clear (e.g. 1 Cor. 15.58 ὁ κόπος ὑμῶν οὐκ ἔστιν κενὸς ἐν κυριῷ) and in others it would fit quite well.

Turning to πέποιθα ἐν κυριῷ, the idea of confidence presumably relates to the κύριος as the supreme authority. Looking at the context in Gal 5.10, Phil 2.24 and 2 Thess 3.4, I see it is rather different from this one, so maybe there isn't the parallelism I first thought. However, ἐν κυρίῳ is also linked with imprisonment in Eph 4.1 so perhaps this is a key to the meaning.

Also perhaps worth noting is that H A W Meyer does not regard ἐν κυρίῳ as fronted for "emphasis" but "placed first as the correlative of the ἐν Χριστ., ver. 13". He does not make ἐν κυρίῳ modify the verb only, but the whole clause πεποιθότας τοῖς δεσμοῖς μου. Presumably this would come out as "because I am in the Lord's service they are confident about my chains (= my imprisonment)". This would, I suppose, not be focus at all but Levinsohn's point of departure ("frame" in Steve Runge's terminology?).
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