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Acts 9:15 ἐνώπιον ἐθνῶν τε καὶ βασιλέων υἱῶν τε Ἰσραήλ

Posted: January 27th, 2019, 7:00 pm
by Jonathan Robie
Acts 9:15 wrote:εἶπεν δὲ πρὸς αὐτὸν ὁ κύριος, Πορεύου, ὅτι σκεῦος ἐκλογῆς ἐστίν μοι οὗτος τοῦ βαστάσαι τὸ ὄνομά μου ἐνώπιον ἐθνῶν τε καὶ βασιλέων υἱῶν τε Ἰσραήλ
If there are three items in this list, something deep inside me wants a τε for βασιλέων, something like this:

ἐνώπιον ἐθνῶν τε καὶ βασιλέων τε καὶ υἱῶν Ἰσραήλ

Or are there two as some translations imply? If so, I am not quite following the syntax of the phrase. What am I missing here?

Re: Acts 9:15 ἐνώπιον ἐθνῶν τε καὶ βασιλέων υἱῶν τε Ἰσραήλ

Posted: January 27th, 2019, 9:47 pm
by Barry Hofstetter
Remember that in τε καί, the enclitic τε functions as the connector/coordinator for the preceding noun, lit. "both nations and kings. The addition τε functions as a simple connector, "and," so "both nations and kings and the sons of Israel." Now that sounds a bit odd in English since we don't really use "both" in a series of three, and so the translations.

Re: Acts 9:15 ἐνώπιον ἐθνῶν τε καὶ βασιλέων υἱῶν τε Ἰσραήλ

Posted: January 28th, 2019, 6:39 am
by Jonathan Robie
Thanks, Barry - I can now see how I misread this τε καί, which still messes me up sometimes. I obviously need to spend a little time mastering this construction (blush) ...

So I should read it like this?

Code: Select all

ἐνώπιον
    τε
       ἐθνῶν καὶ βασιλέων 
    τε 
       υἱῶν Ἰσραήλ
Can I just think of each word in τε καί individually, taking into account that one is postpositive and the other is not, with καί binding more tightly than τε?

Re: Acts 9:15 ἐνώπιον ἐθνῶν τε καὶ βασιλέων υἱῶν τε Ἰσραήλ

Posted: January 28th, 2019, 10:13 am
by Barry Hofstetter
Jonathan Robie wrote:
January 28th, 2019, 6:39 am
Thanks, Barry - I can now see how I misread this τε καί, which still messes me up sometimes. I obviously need to spend a little time mastering this construction (blush) ...

So I should read it like this?

Code: Select all

ἐνώπιον
    τε
       ἐθνῶν καὶ βασιλέων 
    τε 
       υἱῶν Ἰσραήλ
Can I just think of each word in τε καί individually, taking into account that one is postpositive and the other is not, with καί binding more tightly than τε?
Your diagram is good, but I don't know about "binding more tightly." I think this is just one way in Greek of expressing a series of three.

Re: Acts 9:15 ἐνώπιον ἐθνῶν τε καὶ βασιλέων υἱῶν τε Ἰσραήλ

Posted: January 29th, 2019, 5:45 pm
by Matthew Longhorn
Posts like this really do help me in more ways than one. It is great seeing a problem posed, and good answers given. It is equally as great to see established board members and Greek readers asking them, not just us beginners. Gives some hope on those days that not everything seems as easy in translation as you assume it should be.

Re: Acts 9:15 ἐνώπιον ἐθνῶν τε καὶ βασιλέων υἱῶν τε Ἰσραήλ

Posted: January 29th, 2019, 7:29 pm
by Jonathan Robie
I went and looked for some other interesting cases combining τε and καί. (This is the way I learn and make up for holes in my knowledge ... active learning always helps me.) Here are a few with diagrams showing how I understood them. Feel free to correct ...

Rom.1.14 Ἕλλησίν τε καὶ Βαρβάροις, σοφοῖς τε καὶ ἀνοήτοις ὀφειλέτης εἰμί·

Code: Select all

+ τε 
	Ἕλλησίν καὶ Βαρβάροις, 
+ τε
	σοφοῖς καὶ ἀνοήτοις 
p ὀφειλέτης 
v εἰμί· 
Jas.3.7 πᾶσα γὰρ φύσις θηρίων τε καὶ πετεινῶν ἑρπετῶν τε καὶ ἐναλίων δαμάζεται καὶ δεδάμασται τῇ φύσει τῇ ἀνθρωπίνῃ

Code: Select all

γὰρ 
    s πᾶσα φύσις 
      τε 
           θηρίων καὶ πετεινῶν 
      τε 
           ἑρπετῶν καὶ ἐναλίων 
     v δαμάζεται καὶ δεδάμασται 
     + τῇ φύσει τῇ ἀνθρωπίνῃ, 
I'm working through more examples ...