Eph. 2:1, 5 and ὄντας with the dative case of the clause

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Scott Myers
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Re: Eph. 2:1, 5 and ὄντας with the dative case of the clause

Post by Scott Myers » January 20th, 2016, 7:35 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:A lot of this depends on the time to which ὄντας refers, whether this refers to the way they were "being" when they were dead, or the way that they were "being" at the time Paul wrote. You need to find the main verb to identify the time it refers to.
Thanks Jonathan. With all that you shared I am not convinced entirely. It seems a bit subjective. I was wondering if you have access to other works with more information on these passages. I appreciate you taking the time that you have already. I have Exp-GNT on my "theWord". I did not notice it pop up on the search engine for the passages. Thanks. And thank you in advance for any additional time that you spend on this; on me. God Bless
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Hi my name is Scott Myers, Nice to make your acquaintance. May our Lord and Father YHWH bless us in all His ways.

Scott Myers
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Re: Eph. 2:1, 5 and ὄντας with the dative case of the clause

Post by Scott Myers » January 20th, 2016, 8:34 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
No, "in" would be better. It's either an associative dative or a dative of cause. "Dead to" sounds like sin has ended, and Paul here is saying that while we were dead in our sins God had mercy on us, it was while we were dead in our sins that God raised us up... Remember that the present participle denotes that the action or state is current to that of the main verb.
Hi Barry thank you for taking the time to respond. Any addition information you have pertaining to this would be appreciated. As I said to Jonathan I think the main verb thing leaves to much wiggle room in knowing for sure, It seems a bit subjective. I would like to also add in relation to your post that a theological summation for interpretation can go either way. One can prove theologically one is dead to sin and dead in sin via Romans 6;6-13 and Colossians 2:13 respectively.

Here are a couple translations that show how the context flows.
Far Above All Translations of the Robinson Pierpont of the Byzantine Text form;
Including you who are dead to transgressions and sins, in which you once walked, according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit which is now active in the sons of disobedience, among whom we all also once had our mode of life, in the desires of our flesh, doing the will of the flesh, and of the mind, and we were children of wrath by nature, as the rest are too, but God, being rich in mercy, on account of his great love with which he loved us, made us, being dead to transgressions, alive together with Christ you have been saved by grace
(Eph 2:1-5 FAA)

From the Concordant Literal Version:
And you, being dead to your offenses and sins, in which once you walked, in accord with the eon of this world, in accord with the chief of the jurisdiction of the air, the spirit now operating in the sons of stubbornness " (among whom we also all behaved ourselves once in the lusts of our flesh, doing the will of the flesh and of the comprehension, and were, in our nature, children of indignation, even as the rest), yet God, being rich in mercy, because of His vast love with which He loves us" (we also being dead to the offenses and the lusts), vivifies us together in Christ (in grace are you saved!)"
(Eph 2:1-5 CLV)

H. T. Anderson's work:
(Eph 2:1 [Anderson])
Even you, being dead to offenses and sins,

(Eph 2:2 [Anderson])
in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is actively at work in the sons of disobedience:

(Eph 2:3 [Anderson])
among whom also we all formerly lived in the desires of our flesh, doing the will of the flesh and of the feelings, and were by nature children of wrath, even as others:

(Eph 2:4 [Anderson])
but God, being rich in mercy, on account of his great love with which he loved us,

(Eph 2:5 [Anderson])
made alive with Christ even us, being dead to our offenses, (by grace you are saved,)

Thank you again and thank you in advance for any further information you may provide.
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Hi my name is Scott Myers, Nice to make your acquaintance. May our Lord and Father YHWH bless us in all His ways.

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Eph. 2:1, 5 and ὄντας with the dative case of the clause

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 21st, 2016, 11:45 am

Scott Myers wrote:
Barry Hofstetter wrote:No, "in" would be better. It's either an associative dative or a dative of cause. "Dead to" sounds like sin has ended, and Paul here is saying that while we were dead in our sins God had mercy on us, it was while we were dead in our sins that God raised us up... Remember that the present participle denotes that the action or state is current to that of the main verb.
Hi Barry thank you for taking the time to respond. Any addition information you have pertaining to this would be appreciated. As I said to Jonathan I think the main verb thing leaves to much wiggle room in knowing for sure, It seems a bit subjective.
Ah, I suspect you have not yet learned how to identify the time of participles in Greek. Let's focus on that. You might find this chapter helpful:

http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/project/f ... on-58.html

A participle does not express absolute time in either Greek or English. Let me illustrate with an English present participle:
Singing as he went, he picked up his musket.
Singing is a present participle, but the speaker is talking about something that happened in the past, which is clear by the indicative past-tense verb 'went'. The present tense says that this was going on at the time that he 'went'. That's why people who read Greek look for a main verb in order to identify the absolute time of a present participle, without it you don't know.

In some cases, a sentence can be read in more than one way. Here, you've seen that there's more than one candidate for the main verb. Reading sentences is like that, in any language, it can be a little subjective. But I don't see a possible main verb that would make this refer to the present at the time that Paul wrote.

That also means I don't really understand why those particular translations rendered it the way they did. If you look at enough translations, you can find all kinds of things, that doesn't mean they are accurately rendering the Greek. So we focus on the Greek text here. Theological arguments are also out of scope.
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Eph. 2:1, 5 and ὄντας with the dative case of the clause

Post by Barry Hofstetter » January 22nd, 2016, 12:58 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
That also means I don't really understand why those particular translations rendered it the way they did. If you look at enough translations, you can find all kinds of things, that doesn't mean they are accurately rendering the Greek. So we focus on the Greek text here. Theological arguments are also out of scope.
Yes, these translations appear rather idiosyncratic to me. It's why I prefer to avoid translations altogether... :ugeek:

"Literal" translations may sometimes obscure the meaning of the original as much as too free a translation. The syntax of this is complicated due to Paul throwing in a bunch of modifying clauses. But note that he resumes his thought with nearly the identical wording in vs.5, so that it's clear that the main verb is συνεζωοποίησεν. This means that the participle is contemperaneous with those verbs, In other words νεκροί is our state at the point of time in which we were made alive. The question then is the relationship between νεκρούς and τοῖς παραπτώμασιν. What makes the best sense here?
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Scott Myers
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Re: Eph. 2:1, 5 and ὄντας with the dative case of the clause

Post by Scott Myers » January 22nd, 2016, 5:45 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote: Ah, I suspect you have not yet learned how to identify the time of participles in Greek. Let's focus on that. You might find this chapter helpful:.....
In some cases, a sentence can be read in more than one way. Here, you've seen that there's more than one candidate for the main verb. Reading sentences is like that, in any language, it can be a little subjective. But I don't see a possible main verb that would make this refer to the present at the time that Paul wrote.

That also means I don't really understand why those particular translations rendered it the way they did. If you look at enough translations, you can find all kinds of things, that doesn't mean they are accurately rendering the Greek. So we focus on the Greek text here. Theological arguments are also out of scope.
Thanks again Jonathan,
Subjective indeed. συνεζωοποίησεν; Punctiliar aorist, cumulative, or inceptive? Seems like quite the dilemma to me. Could you share on the Punctiliar? I think in that lays the reasoning behind the translations I posted. Wondering also if you don't mind. As I was considering the clause "και υμας οντας νεκρους τοις παραπτωμασιν και ταις αμαρτιαις" In searching for the main verb if we are not heading in the wrong direction? και being the catalyst.

Ha....happy days. My first post that did not need to be approved. Thank you for having me.
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Re: Eph. 2:1, 5 and ὄντας with the dative case of the clause

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 22nd, 2016, 6:24 pm

Scott Myers wrote:Ha....happy days. My first post that did not need to be approved. Thank you for having me.
Yes, welcome. The first two posts are moderated to keep out robots and spammers, you've now posted three times.
Scott Myers wrote:Subjective indeed. συνεζωοποίησεν; Punctiliar aorist, cumulative, or inceptive? Seems like quite the dilemma to me. Could you share on the Punctiliar? I think in that lays the reasoning behind the translations I posted. Wondering also if you don't mind. As I was considering the clause "και υμας οντας νεκρους τοις παραπτωμασιν και ταις αμαρτιαις" In searching for the main verb if we are not heading in the wrong direction? και being the catalyst.
I don't think it's quite as subjective as all that, I don't think that all translations are equally correct, and I think those translations are plainly wrong on this verse. I don't know their reasoning, and I'd rather focus on the Greek text.

B-Greek is not about translations, it's about the Greek text. So let's look at that text:
Jonathan Robie wrote:... but I'm not sure which of the two verbs marked in red should be considered the main verb here. In either case, this refers to a time before they were saved or the exact moment at which God saved them. And the phrases marked in blue also help locate the time.
Καὶ ὑμᾶς ὄντας νεκροὺς τοῖς παραπτώμασιν καὶ ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν, ἐν αἷς ποτε περιεπατήσατε κατὰ τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ κόσμου τούτου, κατὰ τὸν ἄρχοντα τῆς ἐξουσίας τοῦ ἀέρος, τοῦ πνεύματος τοῦ νῦν ἐνεργοῦντος ἐν τοῖς υἱοῖς τῆς ἀπειθείας· ἐν οἷς καὶ ἡμεῖς πάντες ἀνεστράφημέν ποτε ἐν ταῖς ἐπιθυμίαις τῆς σαρκὸς ἡμῶν, ποιοῦντες τὰ θελήματα τῆς σαρκὸς καὶ τῶν διανοιῶν, καὶ ἤμεθα τέκνα φύσει ὀργῆς ὡς καὶ οἱ λοιποί· ὁ δὲ θεὸς πλούσιος ὢν ἐν ἐλέει, διὰ τὴν πολλὴν ἀγάπην αὐτοῦ ἣν ἠγάπησεν ἡμᾶς, καὶ ὄντας ἡμᾶς νεκροὺς τοῖς παραπτώμασιν συνεζωοποίησεν τῷ Χριστῷ— χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι—
The main verb has to be an indicative verb, there are two possibilities, both marked in red. Both of these are aorist. ἐν αἷς ποτε περιεπατήσατε means "in which you once walked". Greek has two "past tenses". The term 'punctiliar' is a rather confusing term that more or less indicates the difference between "walked" and "were walking". If it were imperfect rather than aorist, it would mean "in which you were once walking". If περιεπατήσατε is the main verb, then this is saying that they were "being dead in your transgressions and sins" at the time that they "previously walked according to the ways of this world".

That first interpretation is possible, but I think it's more likely that συνεζωοποίησεν is the main verb. Under this interpretation, it says that "you were being dead" and "we were being dead" at the time that God "made us alive together with Christ". I think the overall organization of the text fits that better, and the contrast between "being dead" and "made us alive" is natural: being dead, he made us alive. συνεζωοποίησεν is aorist rather than imperfect, this does not say that God "was making us alive together with Christ".

Even though you can read this a few different ways, the text means pretty much the same thing either way.
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Re: Eph. 2:1, 5 and ὄντας with the dative case of the clause

Post by timothy_p_mcmahon » January 23rd, 2016, 3:18 am

Jonathan, maybe I'm just not seeing something, but how can ὄντας be adverbial to περιεπατήσατε when περιεπατήσατε is within a relative clause? It seems to me that the main verb must be συνεζωοποίησεν.
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Re: Eph. 2:1, 5 and ὄντας with the dative case of the clause

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 23rd, 2016, 9:49 am

timothy_p_mcmahon wrote:Jonathan, maybe I'm just not seeing something, but how can ὄντας be adverbial to περιεπατήσατε when περιεπατήσατε is within a relative clause? It seems to me that the main verb must be συνεζωοποίησεν.
Yeah, I think you're right.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

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