ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος

Peng Huiguo
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Re: ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος

Post by Peng Huiguo » May 9th, 2019, 12:24 pm

ἡ τοῦ Θεοῦ Δύναμις is in apposition to ὁ Λόγος?
I think so.
I expect that two are in apposition to the third.
Apposition goes in simple adjacent pairs. In translation, you would add a relative pronoun to that 3rd one and make it a relative clause. So,
God's power, the Word, who is the master...
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » May 9th, 2019, 1:25 pm

dimi wrote:
May 9th, 2019, 12:24 pm
ἡ τοῦ Θεοῦ Δύναμις is in apposition to ὁ Λόγος?
I think so.
I expect that two are in apposition to the third.
Apposition goes in pairs. In translation, you would add a relative pronoun to the 3rd one and make it a relative clause. So,
God's power, the Word, who is the master...
Daniel and Dimi, Thank you for responding.
§ 46.3 Πότε δὲ ἡ δαιμόνων ἀπάτη καὶ μανία κατεφρονήθη, εἰ μὴ ὅτε ἡ τοῦ Θεοῦ Δύναμις ὁ Λόγος, ὁ πάντων καὶ τούτων Δεσπότης, διὰ τὴν τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἀσθένειαν συγκαταβάς, ἐπὶ γῆς ἐφάνη;
One reason to consider ὁ Λόγος the subject. ὁ Λόγος functions as the global VIP of the discourse.

Re: multiple appositions with one subject, consider the following:

1Cor. 1:23 ἡμεῖς δὲ κηρύσσομεν Χριστὸν ἐσταυρωμένον, Ἰουδαίοις μὲν σκάνδαλον, ἔθνεσιν δὲ μωρίαν, 24 αὐτοῖς δὲ τοῖς κλητοῖς, Ἰουδαίοις τε καὶ Ἕλλησιν, Χριστὸν θεοῦ δύναμιν καὶ θεοῦ σοφίαν· 25 ὅτι τὸ μωρὸν τοῦ θεοῦ σοφώτερον τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἐστὶν καὶ τὸ ἀσθενὲς τοῦ θεοῦ ἰσχυρότερον τῶν ἀνθρώπων.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Barry Hofstetter
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Re: ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος

Post by Barry Hofstetter » May 9th, 2019, 9:53 pm

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
May 8th, 2019, 2:03 pm
dimi wrote:
May 7th, 2019, 1:30 pm
The pair-form θεὸς λόγος often appears. I've seen it in Origen, Chrysostom, Orthodox liturgy, theological tract...
Here is something else from the same context:
§ 46.3a Πότε δὲ ἡ δαιμόνων ἀπάτη καὶ μανία κατεφρονήθη, εἰ μὴ ὅτε ἡ τοῦ Θεοῦ Δύναμις ὁ Λόγος, ὁ πάντων καὶ τούτων Δεσπότης, διὰ τὴν τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἀσθένειαν συγκαταβάς, ἐπὶ γῆς ἐφάνη;

§ 46.3a Or when did the deceitfulness and madness of demons fall into contempt, save when the power of God, the Word, the Master of all these as well, condescending because of man's weakness, appeared on earth?
A. Robertson 1891
Where ἡ τοῦ Θεοῦ Δύναμις is in apposition to ὁ Λόγος?
Athanasius is not an Atticist, writing rather in a high register Koine. But he appears to have had some training in classical rhetoric. This looks to me like a tricolon crescens.

https://mannerofspeaking.org/2015/03/16 ... -tricolon/
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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Daniel Semler
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Re: ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος

Post by Daniel Semler » May 9th, 2019, 10:04 pm

dimi wrote:
May 9th, 2019, 12:24 pm
I expect that two are in apposition to the third.
Apposition goes in simple adjacent pairs. In translation, you would add a relative pronoun to that 3rd one and make it a relative clause. So,
God's power, the Word, who is the master...
This surprised me so I went looking in the grammars and, on the web for English as well. Everyone says it's a pair of substantives. Odd. It just didn't really make sense to me though examples have to be rare with more terms. Finally I found this from Robertson :
Any number of words or phrases may be in apposition, as in ἐβλήθη ὁ δράκων ὁ μέγας, ὁ ὄφις, ὁ ἀρχαῖος, ὁ καλούμενος Διάβολος καὶ ὁ Σατανᾶς, ὁ πλανῶν τὴν οἰκουμένην ὅλην (Rev. 12:9). [

A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, Accordance electronic ed. (London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1919), 398-400.
https://accordance.bible/link/read/Robertson_Greek#3573
What's odd about this is that the other grammars simply don't comment on it. They just say two.

I note that in the OP the English rendering is as multiple apposition. Of course it was translated by Robertson so that's hardly independent support.

Thx
D
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » May 10th, 2019, 5:10 pm

Daniel Semler wrote:
May 9th, 2019, 10:04 pm

What's odd about this is that the other grammars simply don't comment on it.
There is a time to read grammars
and a time to forget grammars.

Grammars get in the way of learning to read. You don't need to know what this thing your staring at was called by Victorian philologists. Just notice the pattern and variations of the pattern. Ignore the labels.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Daniel Semler
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Re: ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος

Post by Daniel Semler » May 10th, 2019, 6:14 pm

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
May 10th, 2019, 5:10 pm
Daniel Semler wrote:
May 9th, 2019, 10:04 pm

What's odd about this is that the other grammars simply don't comment on it.
There is a time to read grammars
and a time to forget grammars.

Grammars get in the way of learning to read. You don't need to know what this thing your staring at was called by Victorian philologists. Just notice the pattern and variations of the pattern. Ignore the labels.
Could not agree more! Here's a quote from another forum:
The way I look at it is this : the name is a post-facto assignment of a label to a phenomenon found in the wild of language. If the primary intention is to read the language and understand what is being conveyed, then knowing how to read a construction is more important than knowing its name. When I read my native language I don't think what each construction is called as I read and then decode what it means.
That was me in 2016.

At one point while learning to read I had the distinct impression that reading about greek was harming my learning to read Greek.

Thx
D
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Barry Hofstetter
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Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος

Post by Barry Hofstetter » May 11th, 2019, 7:46 am

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
May 10th, 2019, 5:10 pm
Daniel Semler wrote:
May 9th, 2019, 10:04 pm

What's odd about this is that the other grammars simply don't comment on it.
There is a time to read grammars
and a time to forget grammars.

Grammars get in the way of learning to read. You don't need to know what this thing your staring at was called by Victorian philologists. Just notice the pattern and variations of the pattern. Ignore the labels.
I'm reading Caesar's De Bello Gallico right now with my quite advanced Latin 3's. They are amused by all the various explanations of the ablative case (which combines a number of the uses of the genitive and the dative in Greek), asking "They just make these up, don't they?" I was hesitant to tell them how right they are.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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