Phil 1:9 - το

How do I work out the meaning of a Greek text? How can I best understand the forms and vocabulary in this particular text?
Forum rules
This is a beginner's forum - see the Koine Greek forum for more advanced discussion of Greek texts. Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up.

Re: Phil 1:29 - το

Postby David Lim » October 4th, 2012, 10:14 pm

cwconrad wrote:That would mean that the two αrticular-prepositional phrases in the second part of the verse, even linked by οὐ μόνον ... ἀλλὰ καὶ ..., are functioning as an appositive to τὸ ὑπὲρ Χριστοῦ. Is it possible? I don't really think so. For one thing, I still don't find the phrase τὸ ὑπὲρ Χριστοῦ or your English equivalent, "what is for Christ", very meaningful. One major reason for that is that it seems very strange to me to subsume τὸ εἰς αὐτὸν πιστεύειν under the category τὸ ὑπὲρ Χριστοῦ. I can understand "faith in him" as a privilege granted to believers and a foundation for a higher privilege of "suffering for him." That is to say, I can see both τὸ εἰς αὐτὸν πιστεέυειν and τὸ ὑπὲρ αὐτοῦ πάσχειν as χαρίσματα, but I can't see how τὸ εἰς αὐτὸν πιστεέυειν is a subset of τὸ ὑπὲρ Χριστοῦ.


Yes I guessed that you found it strange, but I thought that perhaps the author was referring to the things that are for Christ, including announcing the good tidings as mentioned in verses 15-18, and subsequently others believing him, but not only that but also the suffering for him. I just checked and found that the ESV renders it quite similarly: "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, ", but Darby seems to have taken "το υπερ χριστου" even more vaguely: "because to you has been given, as regards Christ, not only the believing on him but the suffering for him also, ".
δαυιδ λιμ
David Lim
 
Posts: 877
Joined: June 6th, 2011, 6:55 am

Re: Phil 1:29 - το

Postby cwconrad » October 5th, 2012, 6:53 am

David Lim wrote:
cwconrad wrote:That would mean that the two αrticular-prepositional phrases in the second part of the verse, even linked by οὐ μόνον ... ἀλλὰ καὶ ..., are functioning as an appositive to τὸ ὑπὲρ Χριστοῦ. Is it possible? I don't really think so. For one thing, I still don't find the phrase τὸ ὑπὲρ Χριστοῦ or your English equivalent, "what is for Christ", very meaningful. One major reason for that is that it seems very strange to me to subsume τὸ εἰς αὐτὸν πιστεύειν under the category τὸ ὑπὲρ Χριστοῦ. I can understand "faith in him" as a privilege granted to believers and a foundation for a higher privilege of "suffering for him." That is to say, I can see both τὸ εἰς αὐτὸν πιστεέυειν and τὸ ὑπὲρ αὐτοῦ πάσχειν as χαρίσματα, but I can't see how τὸ εἰς αὐτὸν πιστεέυειν is a subset of τὸ ὑπὲρ Χριστοῦ.


Yes I guessed that you found it strange, but I thought that perhaps the author was referring to the things that are for Christ, including announcing the good tidings as mentioned in verses 15-18, and subsequently others believing him, but not only that but also the suffering for him. I just checked and found that the ESV renders it quite similarly: "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, ", but Darby seems to have taken "το υπερ χριστου" even more vaguely: "because to you has been given, as regards Christ, not only the believing on him but the suffering for him also, ".


I am not one for deciding what the Greek text means by counting the votes of translators, but I am certainly interested to see what they do, even more to see how they explain what they do -- if they offer up an explanation.

I note that you haven't cited NET. Its version is good English: "For it has been granted to you not only to believe in Christ but also to suffer for him" -- but its note is 'noteworthy' and one I thought you might have noted: "tn Grk “For that which is on behalf of Christ has been granted to you — namely, not only to believe in him but also to suffer for him.” The infinitive phrases are epexegetical to the subject, τὸ ὑπὲρ Χριστοῦ (to huper Christou), which has the force of “the on-behalf-of-Christ thing,” or “the thing on behalf of Christ.” To translate this in English requires a different idiom." Yea, verily! "The on-behalf-of-Christ-thing" is an enormity in English and I don't think that τὸ ὑπὲρ Χριστοῦ as a substantival phrase in Greek would fall into the class of ordinary Greek idiom either.

REB has "for you have been granted the privilege not only of believing in Christ but also of suffering for him."
'The Message' has "There’s far more to this life than trusting in Christ. There’s also suffering for him. And the suffering is as much a gift as the trusting." Both of these steer clear of the awkward implication of the Greek text that faith in Christ is a subset of "what's for Christ."

On the other hand, Schlatter's German chimes in with your Darby version: "Denn euch wurde in bezug auf Christus die Gnade verliehen, nicht nur an ihn zu glauben, sondern auch um seinetwillen zu leiden," Here τὸ ὑπὲρ Χριστοῦ is rendered "in bezug auf Christus" -- much like Darby's "as regards Christ." But that is to equate ὑπέρ with περὶ. BADG seems to indicate that this is not uncommon in Hellenistic usage:

BDAG s.v. ὑπέρ 3.
3. marker of general content, whether of a discourse or mental activity, about, concerning (about equivalent to περί [τινος], w. which it is freq. interchanged in the mss.; s. Kühner-G. I p. 487 [w. exx. fr. Hom., Pla. et al.]. Also quite common in Polyb., Diod. S., Dionys. Hal., Joseph., ins [e.g. ISardGauthier 2, 3 ‘write about’] and pap [Schmidt 396]; but Ath. differentiates between λόγος ὑπὲρ [in defense of] τῆς ἀληθείας and λόγος περὶ [about] τῆς ἀληθείας R 1 p. 48, 19; Mlt. 105; Rdm.2 p. 140; Johannessohn, Präp 216–21; LDeubner, Bemerkungen z. Text der Vita Pyth. des Iamblichos: SBBerlAk ’35, XIX 27; 71), oft. at the same time in the sense ‘in the interest of’ or ‘in behalf of’ οὗτός ἐστιν ὑπὲρ οὗ ἐγὼ εἶπον J 1:30 (v.l. περί). Ἠσαΐας κράζει ὑπὲρ τοῦ Ἰσραήλ Ro 9:27 (v.l. περί). Cp. 2 Cor 1:8 (v.l. περί); 5:12; 7:4, 14; 8:24; 9:2f; 12:5ab (in all the passages in 2 Cor except the first dependent on καυχάομαι, καύχημα, καύχησις); 2 Th 1:4 (ἐγκαυχᾶσθαι). With reference to (Demosth. 21, 121) 2 Cor 8:23; 2 Th 2:1. ἡ ἐλπὶς ἡμῶν βεβαία ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν our hope with reference to you is unshaken 2 Cor 1:7 (ἐλπὶς ὑ. τινος ‘for someth.’ Socrat., Ep. 6, 5 [p. 234, 28 Malherbe])..


The upshot is, I guess, that it's possible. Awkward Greek, impossible English, some translators to the contrary notwithstanding. I prefer to understand it as an anacoluthon, but I concede that others have taken seriously the strange notion of "the on-behalf-of-Christ thing."
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
… ἐπειδὴ καὶ τὸν οἶνον ἠξίους
πίνειν, συνεκποτέ’ ἐστί σοι καὶ τὴν τρύγα Aristophanes, Plutus 1085
cwconrad
 
Posts: 1252
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:52 pm
Location: Burnsville, NC 28714

Re: Phil 1:29 - το

Postby Stephen Carlson » October 5th, 2012, 8:49 am

cwconrad wrote:The upshot is, I guess, that it's possible. Awkward Greek, impossible English, some translators to the contrary notwithstanding. I prefer to understand it as an anacoluthon, but I concede that others have taken seriously the strange notion of "the on-behalf-of-Christ thing."


I think you've made a good case for understanding Phil 1:29 as a case of anacoluthon. Paul can be prone to it; see, e.g., Gal 2, so we're not talking about anything unusual for our author.

Stephen
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D. (Duke)
Post-Doctoral Fellow, Faculty of Theology, Uppsala
Stephen Carlson
 
Posts: 1812
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
Location: Uppsala University

Re: Phil 1:29

Postby Dean_Poulos » October 5th, 2012, 8:49 am

I'd call this a case of anacoluthon; I think that Paul started out to say "ὑμῖν ἐχαρίσθη τὸ ὑπὲρ Χριστοῦ πάσχειν" -- but that he decided to insert another notion that "suffering for Christ" must have as its necessary foundation. “I'd call this a case of anacoluthon; I think that Paul started out to say "ὑμῖν ἐχαρίσθη τὸ ὑπὲρ Χριστοῦ πάσχειν" -- but that he decided to insert another notion that "suffering for Christ" must have as its necessary foundation. Of course it's possible to English the content by omitting the anacoluthon, "You've been privileged, not only to believe in Christ, but to suffer for Him as well." I think that the initial formulation of the subject of ἐχαρίσθη was intended to be τὸ ὑπὲρ Χριστοῦ πάσχειν, but that Paul switched horses in mid-stream and decided to expand upon his initially intended formulation.


Carl, are you saying it is reasonable to believe the ἀνακόλουθον is Paul intentionally using a non sequitur for the syntactic effect? (Switching horses??) There is I think (I emphasize THINK) some term for this style which escapes me, i.e., a type of self-communication forcing the reader to make sense of the subject at hand.

If so, (I’m probably reaching here, but what you’re saying rings very true) is this common and is this also what could be happening in Jn beklow? (using the longer variant based on the NET notes) and adding the differences below:

Jn. 22-25
22. “Τῇ ἐπαύριον ὁ ὄχλος ὁ ἑστηκὼς πέραν τῆς θαλάσσης, ἰδὼν ὅτι πλοιάριον ἄλλο οὐκ ἦν ἐκεῖ εἰ μὴ ἕν ἐκεῖνο εἰς ὃ ἐνέβησαν οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ, καὶ ὅτι οὐ συν--εισῆλθεν τοῖς μαθηταῖς αὐτοῦ ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἰς τὸ πλοιάριον, ἀλλὰ μόνοι οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ ἀπῆλθον 23. ἄλλα δὲ ἦλθεν πλοιάρια ἐκ Τιβεριάδος ἐγγὺς τοῦ τόπου ὅπου ἔφαγον τὸν ἄρτον, εὐχαριστήσαντος τοῦ κυρίου 24 ὅτε οὖν εἶδεν ὁ ὄχλος ὅτι Ἰησοῦς οὐκ ἔστιν ἐκεῖ οὐδὲ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ, ἐνέβησαν αὐτοὶ εἰς τὰ πλοῖα, καὶ ἦλθον εἰς Καπερναούμ, ζητοῦντες τὸν Ἰησοῦν 25. Καὶ εὑρόντες αὐτὸν πέραν τῆς θαλάσσης, εἶπον αὐτῷ, Ῥαββί, πότε ὧδε γέγονας;

22. Τῇ ἐπαύριον ὁ ὄχλος ὁ ἑστηκὼς πέραν τῆς θαλάσσης εἶδον ὅτι πλοιάριον ἄλλο οὐκ ἦν ἐκεῖ εἰ μὴ ἓν καὶ ὅτι οὐ συνεισῆλθεν τοῖς μαθηταῖς αὐτοῦ ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἰς τὸ πλοῖον ἀλλὰ μόνοι οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ ἀπῆλθον• 23 ἄλλα ἦλθεν πλοιά[ρια] ἐκ Τιβεριάδος ἐγγὺς τοῦ τόπου ὅπου ἔφαγον τὸν ἄρτον εὐχαριστήσαντος τοῦ κυρίου. 24 ὅτε οὖν εἶδεν ὁ ὄχλος ὅτι Ἰησοῦς οὐκ ἔστιν ἐκεῖ οὐδὲ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ, ἐνέβησαν αὐτοὶ εἰς τὰ πλοιάρια καὶ ἦλθον εἰς Καφαρναοὺμ ζητοῦντες τὸν Ἰησοῦν. 25. καὶ ΕὙΡΌΝΤΕΣ αὐτὸν πέραν τῆς θαλάσσης εἶπον αὐτῷ• ῥαββί, πότε ὧδε γέγονας;

The large group of 5,000 people (makes no sense all 5,000 boarded the Tiberian ships) can deduce Christ had went across by divine power and many more stayed, so is it possible to believe they wanted His whereabouts covered (miracles were not their objective).

There had been only boat; they see it leave without Christ, yet the next day when the other boats come, they hopped the ships to Capernaum and there is Jesus. Logically, one must conclude through a miracle. Yet, there seems to be confusion (ἀνακόλουθον) in the words, yet the meaning is self-evident, since in v. 22 the Apostle John confirms only one small ship, that all saw it leave and Christ was not in it. Further, in v 23 we are told when the ships came from Tiberius a group of people (not 5,000) passed over. Perhaps those who were left where they were first fed, also were there to make sure they did not miss Christ seeking to block any exit so that Christ could not leave.

V 26b. You’re not looking for me because of the miracles you saw, but for the food with which you filled your bellies. (ζητεῖτέ με οὐχ ὅτι εἴδετε σημεῖα, ἀλλʼ ὅτι ἐφάγετε ἐκ τῶν ἄρτων καὶ ἐχορτάσθητε).

Jn. 22-25

“The day following, when the multitude which stood on the other side of the sea saw only a small boat had been there, save the one his disciples had left on alone and not with Christ; 23 howbeit other boats from Tiberias arrived at the place where the multitude did eat bread, after Christ had given thanks: 24 when the multitude saw Jesus was not there, [some] boarded the Tiberian ships, and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus. 25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when appearest thou here?"

Or, is this not in any way related to the to the Pauline text? Thanks for any help with this.

Dean Poulos
Dean Poulos
Dean_Poulos
 
Posts: 13
Joined: June 3rd, 2011, 7:28 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Phil 1:29 - το

Postby David Lim » October 5th, 2012, 11:18 pm

cwconrad wrote:I am not one for deciding what the Greek text means by counting the votes of translators, but I am certainly interested to see what they do, even more to see how they explain what they do -- if they offer up an explanation.

[...]

The upshot is, I guess, that it's possible. Awkward Greek, impossible English, some translators to the contrary notwithstanding. I prefer to understand it as an anacoluthon, but I concede that others have taken seriously the strange notion of "the on-behalf-of-Christ thing."


I forgot to check the NET bible notes haha.. And thanks for the other references!
δαυιδ λιμ
David Lim
 
Posts: 877
Joined: June 6th, 2011, 6:55 am

Re: Phil 1:29 - το

Postby MAubrey » October 5th, 2012, 11:53 pm

cwconrad wrote:Well, Mike, if it makes you feel better, you are one among the several whom I have observed writing like that; but for me to name particular culprits would be like the pot calling the kettle black. But you disappoint me, Sir! When I saw your byline, I was hoping that you had something to add to the discussion about the text in question.


I know...I know. I wanted to add something. But to be honest, I don't think there's much to add. It's a terrible awkward Greek sentence and I think the sort of "performance error" that you describe makes a lot of sense. I suppose I could add to that simply that there is an unfortunate tendency for Christians to make bad Greek intelligible at all costs. I've been guilty of it in the past.
Mike Aubrey
Canada Institute of Linguistics & Trinity Western University Graduate School
MAubrey
 
Posts: 623
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 8:52 pm
Location: British Columbia

Previous

Return to What does this text mean?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests