ὥρα πατέρος τε καὶ θυγατέρος

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ὥρα πατέρος τε καὶ θυγατέρος

Postby Barry Hofstetter » January 13th, 2013, 9:47 am

My daughter is taking intermediate Greek from me at the American academy. We began with a unit in Xenophon's Anabasis, and after Christmas break started our unit in the GNT, starting with Mark. The first time she saw οἱ ἅγγελλοι she rendered as "the messengers..." :D
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Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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Re: ὥρα πατέρος τε καὶ θυγατέρος

Postby cwconrad » January 13th, 2013, 10:16 am

Judging from your added emoticon, Barry, I gather you thought that was amusing. To me it seems your daughter is pretty astute. Since this is in the category of "Other," perhaps it's not amiss to reflect upon this usage. Of course the original sense of both the Hebrew 'mragel" and the Greek ἄγγελος is indeed "messenger." And my sense of the earlier OT usage of the term is for a recognizably human figure who carries a sort of message from God. I really have no notion of when the iconography started adding wings and all that stuff (e.g. Isaiah 6). Another thought that comes to my mind in this regard is a talk by the noted Jewish theologian Abraham Heschel, entitled, "Who is Man?" He said the question is usually posed as, "What is Man?" but that the question ought rather to be asked "Who?" And when he got around to answering the question, it was this rather fascinating and challenging riddle: "Man (i.e. ὁ ἄνθρωπος) is a messenger who has forgotten what the message is." I had some nice father-daughter time with my own daughter in Tucson over the Christmas holidays; at the other side of the continent, I don't get to see her very often any more. I appreciate your note.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
… ἐπειδὴ καὶ τὸν οἶνον ἠξίους
πίνειν, συνεκποτέ’ ἐστί σοι καὶ τὴν τρύγα Aristophanes, Plutus 1085
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Re: ὥρα πατέρος τε καὶ θυγατέρος

Postby Barry Hofstetter » January 13th, 2013, 11:51 pm

Thanks, Carl. Amused because it's so opposite what someone who began with NT Greek would assume, and yes, she is very astute. She translated it from its classical context, and I got to explain that it simply means messengers from God. She is my intermediate class this semester (there would have been two others, but they ended up transferring to different schools). Along with AP Latin (now consisting of selections from the Vergil and Caesar), I have several periods a week with just her. I joke about being paid to home school... :lol:
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Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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Re: ὥρα πατέρος τε καὶ θυγατέρος

Postby SusanJeffers » January 14th, 2013, 7:13 am

I teach OT courses as well as NT and Greek and have long used the varying contexts of Hebrew malach / Greek αγγελος to illustrate the value of trying to read / listen to what the text says while carrying as little angels-in-white-robes-with-wings baggage as possible. I also use Psalm 8:4 (Heb 8:5) with its lovely "what is man..." couplet as an illustration of Hebrew poetry for my students to whom I teach just a very little bit of Hebrew and Greek in an Intro to Biblical Studies course.
http://www.read-the-bible.org/HebrewJPG ... thjpgs.pdf

I just ordered a copy of Heschel's "Who Is Man" -- thanks so much!

"... a talk by the noted Jewish theologian Abraham Heschel, entitled, "Who is Man?" He said the question is usually posed as, "What is Man?" but that the question ought rather to be asked "Who?" And when he got around to answering the question, it was this rather fascinating and challenging riddle: "Man (i.e. ὁ ἄνθρωπος) is a messenger who has forgotten what the message is."

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Re: ὥρα πατέρος τε καὶ θυγατέρος

Postby Jason Hare » February 13th, 2013, 12:48 pm

cwconrad wrote:Of course the original sense of both the Hebrew 'mragel" and the Greek ἄγγελος is indeed "messenger."


I assume you mean Hebrew mal'ach (מלאך) rather than mragel (מרגל), which means "spy." ;)
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Rehovot, Israel
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