Use of present participle of ειμι with adjectives?

MAubrey
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Re: Use of present participle of ειμι with adjectives?

Post by MAubrey » March 2nd, 2013, 2:55 pm

David Lim wrote:
MAubrey wrote:How can you tell the usage in the original post is adverbial?
Because it should have been "ο δουλος ο ων μωρος εκλεψε τον οινον" if it were adjectival.
I surely hope that's not Tim's reason.
Mike Aubrey, Linguist
Koine-Greek.com

Stephen Carlson
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Re: Use of present participle of ειμι with adjectives?

Post by Stephen Carlson » March 2nd, 2013, 5:03 pm

MAubrey wrote:
David Lim wrote:
MAubrey wrote:How can you tell the usage in the original post is adverbial?
Because it should have been "ο δουλος ο ων μωρος εκλεψε τον οινον" if it were adjectival.
I surely hope that's not Tim's reason.
David's theory (if I understand it right) is that post-nominal modifiers are adjectival with the article and "adverbial" without. As far as I can tell, few other (if any) hold to that.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

Ken M. Penner
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Re: Use of present participle of ειμι with adjectives?

Post by Ken M. Penner » March 2nd, 2013, 11:21 pm

Stephen Carlson wrote:David's theory (if I understand it right) is that post-nominal modifiers are adjectival with the article and "adverbial" without. As far as I can tell, few other (if any) hold to that.
I would instead understand David to be saying that the definiteness of adjectival post-nominal modifiers should agree with what they are modifying.
Ken M. Penner
St. Francis Xavier University

David Lim
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Re: Use of present participle of ειμι with adjectives?

Post by David Lim » March 3rd, 2013, 12:57 am

Ken M. Penner wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:David's theory (if I understand it right) is that post-nominal modifiers are adjectival with the article and "adverbial" without. As far as I can tell, few other (if any) hold to that.
I would instead understand David to be saying that the definiteness of adjectival post-nominal modifiers should agree with what they are modifying.
Yes Ken got me right. If I didn't have any context and it was "δουλος ων μωρος" instead, it could be adjectival, but if it was "δουλος μωρος ων" I would still say it is adverbial because of the word order. Anyway in both cases I would have to look at the context to determine which it really is.
δαυιδ λιμ

timothy_p_mcmahon
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Re: Use of present participle of ειμι with adjectives?

Post by timothy_p_mcmahon » April 1st, 2013, 11:20 pm

MAubrey wrote:
David Lim wrote:Because it should have been "ο δουλος ο ων μωρος εκλεψε τον οινον" if it were adjectival.
I surely hope that's not Tim's reason.
Actually, Mike, that was my reason. Stems from something I learned about predicate vs. attributive adjectives from Machen some 40 years ago.

But clearly the second set of examples you presented show differently:
Luke 22:3: Ἰούδαν τὸν καλούμενον Ἰσκαριώτην ὄντα ἐκ τοῦ ἀριθμοῦ τῶν δώδεκα
John 19:38: Ἰωσὴφ ὁ ἀπὸ Ἁριμαθαίας ὢν μαθητὴς τοῦ Ἰησοῦ
Acts 24:24 Δρουσίλλῃ τῇ ἰδίᾳ γυναικὶ οὔσῃ Ἰουδαίᾳ
While I think there's a weak case to be made for Luke 22:3 and John 19:38 being adverbial, they both make better sense as adjectival — and Acts 24:24 must be adjectival; there's simply no way to make sense of it as an adverb.

Is this usage specific to the participle of ειμι, or can any anarthrous participle be used as an adjective? Do you know of any examples from other verbs?

When I began learning Greek, I knew there would always be more for me to learn, and I appreciate your educating me on this point. It is disappointing, though, after all these years, that I still have things I need to unlearn.

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