Default Presentation and Diathesis for Common Verbs

Default Presentation and Diathesis for Common Verbs

Postby RandallButh » April 3rd, 2013, 6:47 am

I have been watching the thread on "middle" (μέση) and "passive" (παθητική) and am happy with its general direction.

What remains for Greek teachers and classes to do is to choose the best διάθεσις (disposition, perspective, "voice") for each common verb.

For example, in compound verbs with -στῆναι/-ίστασθαι 'stand-+', the eta-aorist/middle is the correct common verb.
Like ἀνίστασθαι 'to be standing up'.
The uncompounded verb is 'temporally suppletive' and tricky: στῆναι 'to stand' and ἑστάναι 'to be standing'.

The point in the above is that στῆσαι ἱστάναι (ἵστημι) will probably not be the first diathesis needed, and should not be the default first presentaton to a student. "set up, place, stand something" is a less frequently used verb. ἔστην ἔστη is more common and useful than ἔστησα ἔστησεν.

Many verbs need to be presented separately.
Depending on the texts to be read, I would suggest that the default presentation of *αιρε should be
ἑλέσθαι 'choose' [etymologically: 'take for oneself'] αἱρεῖσθαι 'be choosing.' Choosing is a common vocabulary item in a learning situation. (As in 'choose the most correct answer.') ἑλέσθαι is more common than 'taking/killing' ἑλεῖν αἱρεῖν.
STudents need to be able to use and to respond to ἑλοῦ and ἕλεσθε directly, immediately, and without "parsing". (Not that they won't be able to "parse" when asked, but "parsing" is not a communicative activity and requires stepping out of the language and into a second-tiered metalinguistic environment.)

Perhaps a little trickier is deciding when and how to introduce the synonym ἐκλέξασθαι ἐκλέγεσθαι 'choose, pick out'. Also, in this case it is the "middle" disposition that should be chosen for presentation.

The main point in all of this is for teachers to reflect on what they actually want to do with some verbs and then present the best διάθεσιν for that verb.
"παῦσαι ποιοῦση ἐκεῖνο/ παῦσαι λαλῶν !" Here, παῦσαι, of course, is a middle and is probably much more practical than the active παῦσον. [Yes, παῦσαι 'imperative middle' and παῦσαι 'infinitive active' are homonyms, but the middle is used with the participle of the activity to stop.] Let the student learn ! παῦσαι ποιῶν ἐκεῖνο ! in context.
RandallButh
 
Posts: 611
Joined: May 13th, 2011, 4:01 am

Re: Default Presentation and Diathesis for Common Verbs

Postby Stephen Carlson » April 3rd, 2013, 7:22 am

I think it's important to have the lexicons support this as well. One thing that lexicons do now is that their decision to lemmatize on the active form, if one exists no matter how rare or marked, is that it reinforces the notion of "deponent". In other words, those who think that deponents are middle/passive in form but "active" in meaning will find their notion strengthened every time that they have to determine whether to look a verb under a middle or active lemma.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D. (Duke, New Testament)
Stephen Carlson
 
Posts: 1952
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: Default Presentation and Diathesis for Common Verbs

Postby RandallButh » April 3rd, 2013, 8:20 am

While lexical support is helpful during the beginning and intermediate stages of learning, I'm not so sure that it applies accross the board. Many words have occasional usages throughout the history of the Greek language that need documention. At an advanced level, after the core language has been internalized, the lexical presentation would not distort the language.

I see something similar in Arabic and Hebrew. Beginning students get tricked by the etymological root system of Hebrew and Arabic lexica into thinking that they can 'conjugate' verbs from roots. Advanced students and speakers are not usually misled by this.
RandallButh
 
Posts: 611
Joined: May 13th, 2011, 4:01 am

Re: Default Presentation and Diathesis for Common Verbs

Postby Stephen Carlson » April 4th, 2013, 5:11 am

I was mainly thinking of beginning and intermediate vocalbulary lists/glossaries/lexicons, but if it's helpful at the beginning level, why not at the advanced as well?

There's quite a bit about lexicographical theory I haven't learned, but why not have separate entries for the middles of non-prototypically transitive verbs?
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D. (Duke, New Testament)
Stephen Carlson
 
Posts: 1952
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: Default Presentation and Diathesis for Common Verbs

Postby RandallButh » April 4th, 2013, 5:54 am

why not two entries?

for one--dollars and cents--saving ink and space in large works.
And LSJM has already consolidated everything.

However, the new Middle-Liddel might could. I don't know their decision, but I might guess that ink and space would work against innovations.

For beginners, intermediates, and all glossed help material for readings, the diathesis needs to be according to primary usage so that the student gets their head screwed on right, just like little Greek kids got their heads screwed on.
RandallButh
 
Posts: 611
Joined: May 13th, 2011, 4:01 am

Re: Default Presentation and Diathesis for Common Verbs

Postby Stephen Carlson » April 5th, 2013, 7:35 am

Ink may be expensive but pixels are cheap.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D. (Duke, New Testament)
Stephen Carlson
 
Posts: 1952
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: Default Presentation and Diathesis for Common Verbs

Postby RandallButh » April 7th, 2013, 4:33 am

I ran across this
Χαρίτων 3.3.1 ἑαυτὸν ἀνελεῖν 'to kill himself'.
I would imagine that such a pleonastic reflexive would be fairly universally preferred over a middle
because of the idiom ἑλέσθαι 'choose' and ἀνελέσθαι 'pick it up (for oneself)'.
Naturally, that produces a kind of 'homonym' or lexical overlap between ἀναιρεῖν and ἀναιρεῖσθαι when ἀναιρεῖν is used in a passive construction as ἀναιρεῖσθαι. Still, one is much better off having
ἀναιρεῖν
and
ἀναιρεῖσθαι
as two separate lexical items in one's head.

So yes, I would advocate spending a few extra pixels.
RandallButh
 
Posts: 611
Joined: May 13th, 2011, 4:01 am

Re: Default Presentation and Diathesis for Common Verbs

Postby Paul-Nitz » April 8th, 2013, 9:17 am

RandallButh wrote:The main point in all of this is for teachers to reflect on what they actually want to do with some verbs and then present the best διάθεσιν for that verb.
"παῦσαι ποιοῦση ἐκεῖνο/ παῦσαι λαλῶν !" Here, παῦσαι, of course, is a middle and is probably much more practical than the active παῦσον. [Yes, παῦσαι 'imperative middle' and παῦσαι 'infinitive active' are homonyms, but the middle is used with the participle of the activity to stop.] Let the student learn ! παῦσαι ποιῶν ἐκεῖνο ! in context.


Wonderful advice and just the sort of thing we fledgling "communicative approach" teachers need. Keep on talking Randall. What other verbs can you give us advice on?
Paul D. Nitz - Lilongwe Malawi
Paul-Nitz
 
Posts: 207
Joined: June 1st, 2011, 4:19 am

Re: Default Presentation and Diathesis for Common Verbs

Postby RandallButh » April 8th, 2013, 10:21 am

Thank you for the encouragement, Paul.

I suppose that I would say all of the verbs in the Morphologia book need to be worked into fluency in the diasthesis presented.
That's close to a couple hundred.

RB
RandallButh
 
Posts: 611
Joined: May 13th, 2011, 4:01 am


Return to Syntax and Grammar

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest