[B-Greek] APEQANOMEN THi

John Wilking jcwilking at yahoo.com
Sun Jun 1 13:56:45 EDT 2008


George,

But a test of one's understanding of a passage is reflected in a translation, don't you think?  I wasn't looking for a translation/discourse on 7:2,3 but on a translation of APEQANOMEN THi hAMARTIAi.

John   


--- On Sat, 5/24/08, George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] APEQANOMEN THi
> To: jcwilking at yahoo.com
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Saturday, May 24, 2008, 1:40 PM
> There are a number of ways in which one may translate
> virtually any construction or even word.  The test of
> one's understanding of a passage is not necessarily
> dependent upon being able to give a translation which will
> satisfy everyone.  This is why I am frequently amused by
> Wallace when he makes such statements as  
> c. Key to Identification
> For the word ofinsert the paraphrase characterized byor
> described by. If this fits, and if noneof the other uses of
> the genitive fits, then the genitive is probably a genitive
> of description.
> Different folks may have different presuppositions
> regarding what a passage states so using one's
> translation to determine how it should be translated is
> totally circular; nevertheless, it is sometimes necessary
> to actually translate so here is one way.  I am using an
> example from Rom 7 regarding marriage.
> 2ἡ γὰρ ὕπανδρος γυνὴ τῷ ζῶντι
> ἀνδρὶ δέδεται νόμῳ·ἐὰν δὲ
> ἀποθάνῃ ὁ ἀνήρ, κατήργηται
> ἀπὸ τοῦ νόμου τοῦ ἀνδρός.3ἄρα
> οὖν ζῶντος τοῦ ἀνδρὸς
> μοιχαλὶς χρηματίσει ἐὰν
> γένηται ἀνδρὶ ἑτέρῳ·ἐὰν δὲ
> ἀποθάνῃ ὁ ἀνήρ, ἐλευθέρα
> ἐστὶν ἀπὸ τοῦ νόμου, τοῦ μὴ
> εἶναι αὐτὴν μοιχαλίδα
> γενομένην ἀνδρὶ ἑτέρῳ. 
> 2 hH GAR hUPANDROS GUNH TWi ZWNTI ANDRI DEDETAI NOMWi; EAN
> DE APOQANHi hO ANHR, KATHRGHTAI APO TOU NOMOU TOU ANDROS. 
> 3 ARA OUN ZWNTOS TOU ANDROS MOIXALIS XRHMATISEI EAN GENHTAI
> ANDRI hETERWi; EAN DE APOQANHi hO ANHR, ELEUQERA ESTIN APO
> TOU NOMOU, TOU MH EINAI AUTHN MOIXALIDA GENOMENHN ANDRI
> hETERWi.
> Here it is stated that a married woman is bound to her
> husband BY THE LAW.  When the husband dies the woman is
> then freed FROM THE BOND OF THE LAW of marriage.  
> Similarly, I think Paul would argue, that when one is dead
> to the law (of nature) which binds him to sin he is then
> free to enter into another relationship.  He is no longer
> bound to the necessity of doing that which is contrary to
> the law of God.  He is thus DEAD AS REGARDS THE LAW (of
> sin).  This is why he then states 
> Μὴ οὖν βασιλευέτω ἡ ἁμαρτία
> ἐν τῷ θνητῷ ὑμῶν σώματι εἰς
> τὸ ὑπακούειν ταῖς ἐπιθυμίαις
> αὐτοῦ, 
> MH OUN BASILEUETW hH hAMRATIA EN TWi QNHTWi hUMWN SWMATI
> EIS TO hUPAKOUEIN TAIS EPIQUMIAIS AUTOU.
> Don't let sin rule in your mortal body to obey its
> lusts.
> george
> gfsomsel
> 
> 
> … search for truth, hear truth, 
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
> defend the truth till death.
> 
> 
> - Jan Hus
> _________
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: John Wilking <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 12:57:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] APEQANOMEN THi
> 
> George,
> 
> What is the meaning of dative of respect?  How would you
> translate that?
> 
> John C. Wilking
> 
> 
> --- On Sun, 5/18/08, George F Somsel
> <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] APEQANOMEN THi
> > To: jcwilking at yahoo.com, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > Date: Sunday, May 18, 2008, 12:49 PM
> > 7ὁ γὰρ ἀποθανὼν δεδικαίωται
> > ἀπὸ τῆς ἁμαρτίας.
> > 7The first enthymeme ends with a gnomic saying
> about the
> > status of one who has died through co-crucifixion with
> > Christ. The formulation of ὁ ἀποθανών(“he
> who
> > died”) is again generic and refers to everyone who
> has
> > died.147 It is possible that Paul has adapted an
> > early version of rabbinic sayings such as “when a
> man is
> > dead he is freed from fulfilling the law”148 
> > __________
> > 147 In contrast, Conleth Kearns, “The Interpretation
> of
> > Romans 6, 7, ” SPCIC1 (1963) 303–7, suggests
> that
> > “the one who died” is Christ, but this
> decontextualizes
> > v. 7* and results in the odd notion that the
> process
> > of making righteous pertains to Christ rather than to
> > believers.
> > 148 Str-B, 3.232, citing
> b.Šabb.151b
> > Baraita; a citation is proposed by Karl Georg Kuhn,
> “Röm
> > 6, 7: ὁ γὰρ ἀποθανὼν
> δεδικαίωται
> > ἀπὸ τῆς ἁμαρτίας,” ZNW30
> (1931)
> > 305–10, but decisively criticized by Cranfield,
> > 1:310–11.
> > Jewett, R., Kotansky, R. D., & Epp, E. J. (2006).
> > Romans : A commentary. Hermeneia--a critical and
> historical
> > commentary on the Bible (404). Minneapolis: Fortress
> Press.
> > It would appear that the dative is simply a dative of
> > respect as is indicated by Paul's further
> statement
> > Ἢ ἀγνοεῖτε, ἀδελφοί,
> > γινώσκουσιν γὰρ νόμον λαλῶ,
> > ὅτι ὁ νόμος κυριεύει τοῦ
> > ἀνθρώπου ἐφʼ ὅσον χρόνον
> ζῇ; 
> > H AGNOEITE, ADELFOI, GINWSKOUSIN GAR NOMON LALW, hOTI
> hO
> > NOMOS KURIEUEI TOU ANQRWPOU EP' hOSON XRONON ZHi?
> >  george
> > gfsomsel
> > 
> > 
> > … search for truth, hear truth, 
> > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the
> truth, 
> > defend the truth till death.
> > 
> > 
> > - Jan Hus
> > _________
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: John Wilking <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
> > To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 4:35:57 PM
> > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] APEQANOMEN THi
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- On Sat, 5/17/08, John Wilking
> > <jcwilking at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > From: John Wilking <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
> > > Subject: RE: [B-Greek] APEQANOMEN THi
> > > To: "Webb Mealy"
> <webb at selftest.net>
> > > Date: Saturday, May 17, 2008, 4:32 PM
> > > I think the "absurdity" may be hiding
> the
> > fact
> > > that each of the phrases don't make sense in
> > English:
> > > "dead to sin" and "alive to
> > God".  We
> > > don't say "dead to rebellion" or
> > "alive
> > > to my wife".  This isn't primarily a
> > translation
> > > question, but simply that we notice that "we
> died
> > to
> > > sin"  isn't even a possibility, and
> then ask
> > why. 
> > > Should we alter the verb sense?  Or should we
> > consider the
> > > possibility that it is figurative language
> (another
> > way of
> > > altering the meaning, but of the entire
> structure)?
> > > 
> > > So, I assume by the silence that there are no
> examples
> > in
> > > which this structure is seen with other similar
> nouns,
> > > e.g., "dead to patronage" or
> "alive to
> > the
> > > Emperor".  (I ran it by a friend who
> teaches
> > Hebrew,
> > > and at first glance he was unaware of it occuring
> in
> > that
> > > language.)
> > > 
> > > This led me to ask you if there is a theory of
> > metaphor
> > > that is currently in use, one that would help us
> in
> > > detecting a metaphor when we might otherwise miss
> > it.  I
> > > spent a good amount of time years ago working on
> a
> > theory
> > > of metonym in NT Greek and came away with
> something of
> > a
> > > working model, but that doesn't help here.
> > > 
> > > Sorry if such elaboration is a waste of time when
> the
> > > question and your silence were both clear enough.
> > > 
> > > John C. Wilking 
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- On Fri, 5/16/08, Webb Mealy
> > <webb at selftest.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > > From: Webb Mealy <webb at selftest.net>
> > > > Subject: RE: [B-Greek] APEQANOMEN THi
> > > > To: jcwilking at yahoo.com
> > > > Cc: "'Biblical Greek'"
> > > <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > > Date: Friday, May 16, 2008, 6:25 PM
> > > > I suppose you get the clue if taking the
> words in
> > > their
> > > > ordinary meanings
> > > > results in absurdity. Paul says "we
> have
> > > died",
> > > > yet he is alive and he is
> > > > addressing living people. So "we have
> > died"
> > > has
> > > > to be understood as a figure
> > > > of speech. But that is only step one in
> trying to
> > > figure
> > > > out what is going
> > > > on.
> > > > 
> > > > Webb Mealy
> > > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org]
> On
> > Behalf
> > > Of
> > > > John Wilking
> > > > Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 2:59 PM
> > > > To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] APEQANOMEN THi
> > > > 
> > > > Concerning the previous post, on a broader
> scale,
> > how
> > > do we
> > > > know if a phrase
> > > > is metaphorical?  
> > > > 
> > > > John C. Wilking
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- On Wed, 5/14/08, John Wilking
> > > > <jcwilking at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > From: John Wilking
> > <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
> > > > > Subject: APEQANOMEN THi
> > > > > To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > Date: Wednesday, May 14, 2008, 5:30 PM
> > > > > I haven't found any discussion of
> > APEQANOMEN
> > > THi
> > > > as a
> > > > > possible metaphor in Romans 6:2,
> APEQANOMEN
> > THi
> > > > hAMARTIAi.
> > > > > 
> > > > > John C. Wilking
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >      
> > > > ---
> > > > B-Greek home page:
> http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> > > > B-Greek mailing list
> > > > B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > >
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > -- 
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> >       
> > ---
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> > 
> > 7 hO GAR APOQANWN DEDIKAIWTAI APO THS hAMARTIAS
> > 10ὃ γὰρ ἀπέθανεν, τῇ
> ἁμαρτίᾳ
> > ἀπέθανεν ἐφάπαξ·ὃ δὲ ζῇ,
> ζῇ
> > τῷ θεῷ. 
> > 10 hO GAR APEQANEN, THi hAMARTIAi APEQANEN EFAPAC; hO
> DE
> > ZHi, ZHi TWi QEWi. 


      



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