[B-Greek] HQELON OUN LABEIN AUTON EIS TO PLOION Jn 6:21

Bryant J. Williams III bjwvmw at com-pair.net
Wed Jun 4 13:46:43 EDT 2008


Dear Tony,

I served in the US Navy for 3 and 1/2 yrs. The visible horizon is 8 miles. The
Sea of Galilee is about 8-9 miles at its widest and 12.5 miles in length. Thus,
one could keep the shoreline in view from almost anywhere on the Sea of Galilee,
even when traveling from North to South.

According to Mark 5-6, Jesus had gone from the Capernaum area to Gergesa, then
to Bethsaida, near where the Feeding of the Five Thousand. It is after the
Feeding of the Five Thousand that Jesus commands the disciples to get in the
boat and go to the other side, to Capernaum. It is during this journey to the
other side that Jesus walks on the water; and, at first, Jesus is recognized as
a ghost (FANTASMA ESTIN, Mk 6:49).

Even with the great storm that has occurred, then stilled Jesus, the shore is
would still be visible. The disciples are going from the Northeastern shore of
Bethsaida to the North-Northwestern shore of Capernaum. To keep the shore within
eyesight, even in a storm, admittedly is not easy, but can be done especially be
experienced sailors and fishermen who knew the Sea of Galilee quite well.

En Xristwi,

Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tony Pope" <borikayaama_tekiri at sil.org>
To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 7:15 AM
Subject: [B-Greek] HQELON OUN LABEIN AUTON EIS TO PLOION Jn 6:21


> Bob Meyers wrote:
>
> > Ok, perhaps I had checked Alford on this passage too hurriedly, and
> > failed to mentally shift into low gear which is required in reading
> > him.  But I wasn't trying to deliberately misrepresent him.  His
> > opening words on the passage were, "There surely can be no question in
> > the mind of an unprejudiced reader, that it is John's {more
> > importantly, God's - BWM} intention to relate a miracle . . ."
>
> I am not trying to deny the miracle of the storm being stilled. Alford's
opening words are given as
> comments on the Greek words PER[IPATOUNTA] EPI THS QAL[ASSHS]. They are aimed
at those who have
> wished to interpret them as meaning that Jesus was walking on the shore.
>
> > In view of John 20:31, shouldn't this be the first major consideration
> > for every narrative in John, especially those involving the absolute
> > EGW EIMI verses (except 9:9, of course)?   And it certainly is not,
> > with the vast majority of "scholars;" but instead they seem to me to
> > have an agenda of the exact opposite.
>
> > It seems to me that  _all_ of the EGW EIMI passages in John, without
> > any apparent predicate (4:26, 6:20, 8:24,28,58, 13:19, and the three
> > times repeated (rather "strangely" so) in John 18), are filled with
> > supernatural accompaniments appropriate to claims of Messiaship ---
> > and even more, of Deity.  The three in John 8 may seem to be an
> > exception?  What about the sequel after they, having the Lord Jesus
> > surrounded and about to stone Him, how He, with His disciples yet,
> > "hid himself, ... passed by ..."?  And in ch. 9, "as they were passing
> > by, saw a man who had been blind from his birth" --- now how did these
> > briefly visiting Galileans to Jerusalem all know that?  And on and on
> > and on with one miracle on top of another in their dialog, even before
> > the healing miracle took place.
>
> Well, it's a fair point. But IMO, this argument does not enable us to
distinguish between two
> miracles in John 6 or three. I would say that an added miracle whereby the
occupants of the boat
> were transported in an instant from the middle of the lake to the shore would
need to be signalled
> by more explicit language, as in the case of Philip in Acts 8.
>
> > >They were afraid : -- 
>
> > I can vouch for the truth of that remark, after reading of similar
> > occurrences in the Bermuda Triangle.
>
> > >but on being reassured by His voice,
> > >they were willing to take Him into the
> > >ship ; and upon their doing so, the ship in a comparatively short time (or
perhaps _immediately,
> > >by
> > >miracle_, but I prefer the other) was AT THE LAND TO WHICH THEY HAD BEEN
GOING (my caps --- BWM),
>
> > These are the other words which would seem completely trite, as well
> > as EUQEWS (others have shown possibly not; but it very much also
> > remains, at least, "possibly so" --- at least most of my Bible
> > versions take it that way).  With a several mile trip over water, in a
> > dark night (or maybe He also made the moon appear? - fine with me)
> > isn't John carefully saying that they arrived at a pinpoint
> > destination along miles of shoreline with obviously paying little to
> > no attention to the intricate navigation which would be required?
>
> Even in the dark, and with no moon at 3 a.m. (it being probably a week or so
before the Passover
> full moon), surely there would be enough starlight to make out the outline of
the hills unless the
> cloud cover was very dense. And if, as seems reasonable to assume even if
impossible to prove, the
> miracle of the stilling of the storm had left a clear sky, I cannot see that
experienced fishermen
> would need intricate navigation to get home to Capernaum. They would use the
stars to navigate by.
>
> A number of commentators have made reference to Psalm 107.30, and indeed the
closing words of Jn
> 6.21 may well have their point in alluding to that passage, which was surely
well-known to them as
> sailors. Be that as it may, I do not see that John's language requires any
more than to say it was
> "plain sailing" after Jesus got in the boat.
>
> Tony Pope
>
>
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