[B-Greek] OUDEIS in Revelation 15:8

Edgar Foster edgarfoster2003 at yahoo.com
Tue Jun 24 15:01:12 EDT 2008


Dear Elizabeth,

You raise an interesting question below. One question that I would have is whether John is not making a distinction between hOI hEPTA AGGELOI and TA TESSARA ZWA. See Revelation 5:11; 7:11 where a distinction is made between angels in general and TA TESSARA ZWA.

John does not say whence hEN EK TWN TESSARWN ZWiWN came. But I don't see this as a major problem in light of what other parts of the Apocalypse tell us about TA TESSARA ZWA and their location in proximity to God's throne. Pierre Prigent indicates that Revelation 15:7 alludes to Ezekiel 10:7. See his text Commentary on the Apocalypse of St. John, page 463 (Mohr Siebeck, 2001).

Regards,

Edgar Foster

--- On Mon, 6/23/08, Elizabeth Kline <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net> wrote:

> From: Elizabeth Kline <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] OUDEIS in Revelation 15:8
> To: "greek B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Cc: "Edgar Foster" <edgarfoster2003 at yahoo.com>
> Date: Monday, June 23, 2008, 6:14 PM
> On Jun 23, 2008, at 10:08 AM, Edgar Foster wrote:
> 
> > I now have a relatively simple question concerning
> Revelation 15:8:
> >
> > KAI EGEMISQH hO NAOS KAPNOU EX THS DOXHS TOU QEOU KAI
> EK THS  
> > DUNAMEWS AUTOU, KAI OUDEIS EDUNATO EISELQEIN EIS TON
> NAON AXRI  
> > TELESQWSIN hAI hEPTA PLHGAI TWN hEPTA AGGELWN.
> >
> > Do you think that OUDEIS which is functioning
> substantively in this  
> > text is being used in an absolute sense? That appears
> to be how this  
> > term is employed in Matthew 6:24; 9:16; John 1:18.
> >
> > Wesley's Notes to the Bible indicate that
> Revelation 15:8 suggests  
> > that heavenly beings normally attendant upon the
> throne of God in hO  
> > NAOS were unable to enter while the seven bowls were
> being poured  
> > out as plagues. I guess that I would like to know
> about the possible  
> > referential scope of OUDEIS in this passage.
> 
> RE. 15:5 KAI META TAUTA EIDON, KAI HNOIGH hO NAOS THS
> SKHNHS TOU  
> MARTURIOU EN TWi OURANWi,  6 KAI EXHLQON hOI hEPTA AGGELOI
> h[OI]  
> ECONTES TAS hEPTA PLHGAS EK TOU NAOU ENDEDUMENOI LINON
> KAQARON LAMPRON  
> KAI PERIEZWSMENOI PERI TA STHQH ZWNAS CRUSAS.  7 KAI hEN EK
> TWN  
> TESSARWN ZWiWN EDWKEN TOIS hEPTA AGGELOIS hEPTA FIALAS
> CRUSAS GEMOUSAS  
> TOU QUMOU TOU QEOU TOU ZWNTOS EIS TOUS AIWNAS TWN AIWNWN. 
> 8 KAI  
> EGEMISQH hO NAOS KAPNOU EK THS DOXHS TOU QEOU KAI EK THS
> DUNAMEWS  
> AUTOU, KAI OUDEIS EDUNATO EISELQEIN EIS TON NAON ACRI
> TELESQWSIN hAI  
> hEPTA PLHGAI TWN hEPTA AGGELWN.
> 
> OUDEIS may refer to the heavenly beings, however attempting
> to work  
> out all the visual details of the scenes in the Apocalypse
> doesn't  
> always lead to satisfying results. For example: KAI hEN EK
> TWN  
> TESSARWN ZWiWN EDWKEN TOIS hEPTA AGGELOIS ... Where did hEN
> EK TWN  
> TESSARWN ZWiWN come from? Did hEN leave the other three
> behind? We are  
> explicitly told that KAI EXHLQON hOI hEPTA AGGELOI h[OI]
> ECONTES TAS  
> hEPTA PLHGAS EK TOU NAOU so we know that hOI hEPTA AGGELOI
> are outside  
> and from this we might infer that hEN EK TWN TESSARWN ZWiWN
> was also  
> outside but we are not told that EXHLQEN EK TOU NAOU hEN EK
> TWN  
> TESSARWN ZWiWN. I think R.H.Charles' (ICC Rev)
> suggestion that we not  
> attempt to make this more than a figurative allusion to
> several Old  
> Test theophanies is probably the best way to handle this.
> 
> Elizabeth Kline


      



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