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Dear Bhagavathas

The Shankara point of view as described by my father
Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan

Aravindan
************************************** 

I will give Shankaras view as it is for the Sutra 2 2
30

To be brief, from every point of viewthat this
Buddhist doctrine may be examined for finding out some
justification, it will break down like a well sunk in
sand;and we donot find any least logic here.Hence also
all behaviour based on the Buddhist scriptures is
unjustfiable.Moreover Buddha exposed his own
incoherence in talk when he instructed the three
mutually contradictory theories of the existence of
external objects,existence of consciousness and
absolute nihilism;or he showed his malevolence towards
all creatures,acting under the delusion that these
creatures would get confused by imbibing contradictory
viewsThe idea is that the Buddhist view should be
abjured in every way by all, who desire the highest
good 

In the previous sutra Shankara is logic personified.

The Sutra is 'Kshnikathwa cha' meanig 'The ego
-conciousness cannot be the abode , for it is
momentary.'

If you assume ego-conciousness to be the abode of all
that you feel( not the soul)tht too has no stability
since it is also momentary.For, unless there be some
principle running thro every thing and abiding thro
all three periods of time(past, present and future) or
some unchanging witness of all,there can be no human
dealing involving remembrance, recognition etc,which
are contingent on past impressions that are stored up
in conformity with environment,time and causation If
ego- consciousness be assumed tobe unchanging by
nature,your doctrine of momentariness will be set at
nought.

It strange that in Sri Bhashya this sutra is not
there. Ramanuja says that the the Buddhist view,namely
  though the pot does not exist its mental impression
exists is not tenable since in practice we dont find a
situation when knowledge alone existing with out its
object, In other words knowledge  requires an object.

Later I will tell about Madhva's

To understand fully you should spend some time with
me-The Kalaksheba mode is the best way to unravel
these coplex logics.

Love 

Appa.





>From: Arvind Rajagopalan <rwind_raj@xxxxxxxxx> 


>To




>From: Arvind Rajagopalan <rwind_raj@xxxxxxxxx> 
>To: rajagop_s@xxxxxxxxxxx 
>Subject: Fwd: Re: [ramanuja] Fwd: BrahmaSutra and
Buddhism 
>Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 18:29:37 -0700 (PDT) 
> 
> 
>Another mail asking further clarification. Mohan if 
>you recollect is the person you met in Denver 
> 
> 
>--- Mohan  Ramanujan <mohan_ramanujan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

>wrote: 
> 
> > To: ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > From: "Mohan  Ramanujan" 
> > <mohan_ramanujan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
> > Date: 1 Sep 2004 04:34:12 -0000 
> > Subject: Re: [ramanuja] Fwd: BrahmaSutra and 
> > Buddhism 
> > 
> > Dear Sriman, 
> > 
> > Indeed it is very interesting.  Just out of 
> > curiosity.... Can you also tell what is the reply
of 
> > Sankara and Madhwa to the Sunyavada of  Buddhists.

> > 
> > Thanks & Regards 
> > Mohan Ramanujadasan. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 Arvind Rajagopalan wrote : 
> > > 
> > >Dear Bhagavatas, 
> > > 
> > >An interesting email from my father i wanted to 
> > share 
> > >with all. 
> > > 
> > >Adiyen Ramanuja dasan 
> > > 
> > >Aravindan 
> > >****************************************** 
> > >In the latest issues of Kumudam Bhakti, we are 
> > >translating Brahma sutras which deal with
Buddhism. 
> > As 
> > >you may know the second chapter of BS is called 
> > >Avirodha Adhyaya and the sutras therein argue how

> > >other philosophies like Lokayata, Jaina, Sankya, 
> > Yoga 
> > >Nyaya,,Vaishshika, Pasupatha are not supported by

> > the 
> > >Vedas .I thought you will like the arguments of
BS 
> > >against Buddhism as I found them a delight to my 
> > >rational mind and hence this letter. 
> > > 
> > >First I will give the English translation of what

> > we 
> > >have written as introduction to the Adhikaranam 
> > >dealing with Buddhism and then I will try to give

> > you 
> > >a translation of Sri Bhashya to give you a sample

> > of 
> > >the great intellect of Sri Ramanuja. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >Let us understand the essentials of Buddhism as
an 
> > >introduction to the Sutras that follow. 
> > > 
> > >Buddhism is divided into two main  branches, 
> > >Mahayana(great Path) and Hinayana(lower path) 
> > Hinayana 
> > >has again two branches called Vaibhashika and 
> > >Southrandhika. Mahayana is divided into Yogachara

> > or 
> > >Vignanavada and Madhyamika. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >Two thousand five hundred years ago(circa BC 
> > >563-483)lived Gautama Buddha one of the
outstanding 
> > >thinkers of mankind. His life history is fairly 
> > known 
> > >to all of us. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >What he realised as the fundamental truth is
this. 
> > In 
> > >the universe every thing is changing every
moment. 
> > >Even the rocks and mountains change, slowly but 
> > >surely. There in nothing that does not change. 
> > > 
> > >So, anything that changes cannot be true, meaning

> > >permanent What is true is change and not objects
of 
> > >change.  So nothing exists.(if you slice every 
> > moment 
> > >into infinite parts and say that in every one of 
> > those 
> > >parts things change, you will realise this) 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >This Sunya philosophy  (nihilism) based on Khana 
> > >Bhanga Nyayam, can be translated in English as 
> > under. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >Everything is changing and nothing is constantly 
> > >existing. Since nothing has constant existence,
it 
> > >follows that nothing is real, or, only Nothing is

> > >real. Thus, nothing in fact exists. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >On the basis of the above principle of
transience, 
> > >Buddhists are called Sunyavadhis or Kshanikas. 
> > > 
> > >Let us now see the differences among the four 
> > >branches. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >The external world of objects, thro our senses, 
> > >becomes our internal world How can we say that
our 
> > >internal world is the exact replica of the
external 
> > >world?. 
> > > 
> > >Our senses may alter the external world and
present 
> > to 
> > >us an internal world, which may be totally 
> > different 
> > > from the external world. Also we have said that 
> > every 
> > >thing changes every moment . So both the external

> > and 
> > >internal worlds are changing, moment to moment. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >The Vaibhashikas say that though the external and

> > >internal worlds are changing every moment, for
the 
> > >duration of that one moment they are real, and
they 
> > >exist. 
> > > 
> > >The Southrandhikas say that the external world
can 
> > >only be guessed by us, since we only perceive the

> > >internal world and we can only deduct that the 
> > >external world is a replica of the internal
world. 
> > > 
> > >Since both say that the world is real, even
though 
> > for 
> > >a moment only, the Hinayanis are called Realists.

> > > 
> > >Yogacharas say that by the logic of transience 
> > >external world does not exist. Only the internal 
> > world 
> > >or our thoughts are real. 
> > > 
> > >Madhyamikas go one step further and say by the
same 
> > >logic of transience, the internal world or our 
> > >thoughts are also unreal ,since thoughts are also

> > >changing every moment.. Theirs is the ultimate 
> > >nihilism. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >Now I will give a sample of Sri Bhashya. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >BS 2-2-30 Sarvada Anupapades cha. 
> > > 
> > >Sarvada- In every way. 
> > > 
> > >Anupapades cha-(Sunyavada) Is not tenable or 
> > >appropriate.. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >The Buddhists say thus. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >Gnana, or thought and external world does not
exist 
> > >This non-existence is the? ?reality? 
> > > 
> > >If an object exists, there must be a cause. For
the 
> > >pot to exist clay is the cause. 
> > > 
> > >The problem is, we cannot deduct the cause for 
> > >anything.   Because we are not able to see
anything 
> > >created from another thing. Even clay has to be 
> > >kneaded etc for becoming the pot and hence how
can 
> > we 
> > >say for sure, that the  pot is created by clay.
So 
> > we 
> > >say that if there is an object we cannot say for 
> > sure 
> > >that it has been created from another existing 
> > object 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > From  non existence no existing thing can be 
> > created. 
> > >Out of nothing can anything come?( like in  a Sai

> > baba 
> > >trick!) Clay gets completely destroyed when pot
is 
> > >made. When clay gets destroyed there is nothing 
> > left . 
> > >or only nothing is left. So pot cannot be created

> > out 
> > >of nothing. So we say the pot does not exist. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >There is a third possibility. From pot itself pot

> > can 
> > >come. But this is no creation. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  We have proved that an existing thing cannot be

> > >created from another existing thing or a non 
> > existing 
> > >thing In other words nothing can  exist!( Do you 
> > >follow this logic? Buddha must have had a very 
> > sharp 
> > >mind indeed) 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >Ramanuja says in reply thus 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >What do you say? Do you say things exist? Or
Doyou 
> > say 
> > >things don?t exist ? or do you say they exist and

> > >don?t exist ? None of the three assumptions will 
> > lead 
> > >to Sunyavada. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >If you say things exist.. We have already proved 
> > that 
> > >existence and non existence is  the knowledge or 
> > >gnanam of status change. We see a pot and after 
> > >someone removes the pot or it gets destroyed to 
> > become 
> > >pieces, we don?t see the pot - this is a mere 
> > status 
> > >change. So how can you say that nothing exists? 
> > >Sunyavada fails. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >If by means of some logic or Pramana, you want to

> > >prove that everything is Sunyam, then since that 
> > logic 
> > >or Pramana is also included in the statement that

> > >every thing is Sunya,  you can never prove your 
> > theory 
> > >of Sunyavada. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >Are you confused to such a degree that you wish I

> > >stop? I stop here. 
> > > 
> > >Affly, 
> > > 
> > >Appa. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > >From: arvind <rwind_raj@xxxxxxxxx> 
> > > >Reply-To: rwind_raj@xxxxxxxxx 
> > > >To: "rajagop_s@xxxxxxxxxxx" 
> > <rajagop_s@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
> > > >Subject: punyajanam pics 
> > > >Date: 14 Aug 2004 22:21:09 -0700 
> > > > 
> > > >punyajanam pics 
> > > >If you did not see the full album please click 
> > here 
> > > 
> > 
>
>http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rwind_raj/album?.tok=phrmZlBB46hp4Qsm&.dir=/4899&.src=ph

> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >__________________________________ 
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> > > 
> > > 
> > >azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam 
> > > 
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been 
> > removed] 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>__________________________________ 
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