Dear Sri Sampige Srinivasa Swamin, Thank you sharing us about the origin of the word Hebbar. That was very informative. You have also mentioned that Sri Ramanujacharya was not a SriVaishnava when he was born and was born to an advaitin. Could you please refer some authentic manuscripts regarding this claim? I don't think Sri Ramanuja was born to an Advaitin. We first need to understand the social structure of Sri Ramanuja's days. In those days everyone who followed the Vedic (vaidika) religion wore only an urdhava pundram and worshipped Sriman Narayana as the supreme reality. Some of these vedic (vaidika) people might have followed advaita philosophy as well. But the difference between now and then was whether you are a advathi or a vishistadvaithi you always wore a urdhva pundram and worshipped Sriman Narayana as the supreme reality unlike the present scenario. Therefore whatever the difference between the (present day) smarthas and (present day) vaishnavas did not exists in those days. In fact everyone followed smartha dharmam (the rituals prescribed in smrithis) but lived a vaishnavite life. Therefore even if we say that Sri Ramanuja was born in a smartha family, we need to clearly understand that the present smartha-vaishnava grouping did not exist in those days. For example those smarthas did not wear thri-pundram. They might have used thiruman, srichurnam or sandal or gopi or something else to wear an urdhva pundram. Another example is those smarthas did not accept other deities as supreme reality. Adiyen still remember the words of Sri Velukkudi Varadhacharyar Swami during one of his upanyasams in Tiruvallikkeni. Swami said, "Vaidikas (those who follow vedic religion) may dispute among themselves whether Advaita is the vedic philosophy, or Vishistadvaita is the vedic philosophy or Dvaita is the vedic philosophy. But these vaidikas will never dispute whether Sriman Narayana is the supreme reality or some other deity is the ultimate truth. Because Sriman Narayana's supremacy is what vedic philosophy and that is what all vaidikas including Advaitis, Vishishtadvaitis and Dvaitis believe." But of course the present day situation is different. We should not gauge those days with present day's standards. Now the question comes, how do we know for sure? We need to read the great works done by those acharyas. For example, Sri Adhi Shankaracharya's Brahma Sutra Bhashayam (in particular 2nd chapter (Avirodhathyayam, Dharga Padham) will be a good place to start about Sri Shankaracharya's position on various religions practiced in his days. Similarly, Sri Shankaracharya's Sri Gita Bhashayam and Sri Vishnu Sahasranama Bhashayam would be equally good to read in order to understand his philosophy. But if we want to know the essence of these writings, there are two excellent books written by Puththur Sri Sudharshanam Sri Krishnamachariyar Swami entitled: 1. Sanga Kala Tamizhar Samayam 2. Shankararum Vainavamum. These two books were written with authenticity. These books are in Tamil. So, someone needs to translate them for everyone to read. They are truly eye-openers for many misconceived thoughts. Adiyen Ramanujadasan Kannan >===== Original Message From "Sampige Srinivasa" <sampiges@xxxxxxxxxxx> ===== >Dear Sri. Balaji, > >Yes Hebbar Iyengars were not originally Srivaishnavas as you said and also >it is true that even Sri. Ramanujacharya was not a Srivaishnava when he was >born. He was born to an advaitin! So when Ramanuja preached Vishistadvaita, >Srivaishnavism became popular in Tamilnadu and as you said, when >Sri.Ramanjua fled from TN and settled in Karnataka for 12 long years it >spread to Southern Parts of Karnataka. > >The details of Hebbar Srivaishnava origin was published long back in the >Hebbar Srivaishnava magazine called "Hebbar Kshema" and I remember reading >this. Also a historical novel written by Smt. Neeladevi about the life of >Ramanjuja in Karnataka named "Dhanya" gives similar answers to the orgin of >Hebbar Srivaishnavas > >During the time when ramanjuja was in Tondanur(Tonnur) near Melukote, a >group of elderly Kannada Brahmins came to Ramanjua and offered to convert to >Srivaishnava Religion impressed by Ramanujas philosophy of Vishistadvaita. >Ramanjua affectionately called the group of Hiriya Haruva(Elderly Brahmin >Kannadigas) as Hebbar and thus originated the sect called Hebbar >Sivaishnava(Iyengars). So Hebbar Srivaishnavas are originally Kannada >Brahimins(Advaitins) who got converted to Srivaishnavas impressed by the >teachings of Sri. Ramanuja and not of backward Caste as you said. > >Ramanuja asked them to settle in different places of the Hoysala >Kingdom(Current South Karnataka) and thus you can find many Hebbar >Srivaishnavas mainly in the souther districts of Karnatka especially, >Bangalore, Mysore, Mandya, Tumkur, Hassan, Kolar and Chamarajanagar >districts. > >They have their kuladaivams or Haath perumal in different places of these >districts. for more info. Please visit www.karnatkavaishanavatemples.net ><http://www.karnatkavaishanavatemples.net/> > >Since their mother tongue was Kannada they still have the affliction towards >kannada. Gradually they learnt to speak Tamil mainlyu to learn the Divya >Prabhandams. > >But still Hebbar Srivaishnavas cannot read and write in Tamil. They read the >Ramanujas philosophical works and Alwars divya prabhandams translated to >Kannada or English. But they recite Nalayara divyaprabhandams in Temples in >Karnataka forming Gostis. They are called Melnatu Iyengars as they are >residing in the High plateau of Karnataka. Another sect called Keelnatu >Iyengars are those who migrated to Karnataka from Tamilnadu, which is lower >than the Plateau of Karnataka. > >I request any one in the groups who can give more info on a unique sect >called Hebbar Srivaishnavas of Karnataka. > >Om namO nArAyanAya >Sampige Srinivasa Iyengar >Bengalooru > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/VkWolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! 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