May I know how many of US know Vedas and Vedic Principles, and is that the yardstick to measure depth of ones own understanding. Guptas point as well as other points in the group should be taken as a views of commoners and not Vedic Pundits, those commoners also follows of Hindu Dharma. You may claim that there is not such thing as Hinduism ( yes, I agree with you), but in our Birth Certificate and Marriage certificate, majority Indians, who are Hindus don't say " vedic age" or Sanatha Dharma.,, so let us kindly focus on the issue as Hinduism AKA ..Vedic Principles or Sanathana Dharma. Certainly, just by doing Sandhyavandanam alone ONE does not become a follower of Hindu Dharma or Vedic Priciple, that is a short sighted view, Bhakti and Love could be a part and parcel of a Ritual, but they are certainly above Rituals. Our own Alwars and Nayarnmars are elevated to their pinnacle becoz of the Bhakti and love for God and not for the Rituals. So, I totally disagree with your Shri. Ramachandran that you have to enjoy the love of Bhakti and Love for God and not judge one by doing a certain ritualistic process. I certainly feel that in today's lifestyle an Most of those follow Sandhyavandam are doing with a feeling of not to be left alone, and branded as not following their DUTY but certainly they don't have the time like our elders who had all the time and contenment. and far less materialistic commitments. Namaskarams Swathi ----- Original Message ----- From: <s.ramachandran@xxxx> To: Raman Kannan <rrfamily@xxxx>; <bhakti-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; sampath kumar <sampathkumar_2000@xxxx>; <parakalamatham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <sv-general@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Cc: alambda <alambda@xxxx>; <SrirangaSri@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <shobha.srinivasan@xxxx>; <Visu9@xxxx>; Narasimhan KC <mythkc@xxxx>; Shobha Subramaniam <shobha03@xxxx> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 10:11 PM Subject: OP Gupta's article /: Vedas, Hindu scriptures prohibit casteism > > Hope all pardon the writer, but almost everyone - including OP Gupta - > seems to nurse a common fallacy about basic concepts and priciples. > > 1. Coining words like Hinduism itself is meaningless. The Vedic structure > prevails over the entire universe/cosmos, nay it extends to the heavens, > down below in the deepest bowels of the earth at her nadir. > > 2. The Vedic principles and sound forms do not refer to Caste etc. and > these are human creations which has been historically misused by all. > Conscious effort has to be made by all in refraining to put this word into > use - hope everyone does not misunderstand this writer's use in para 2 > here, but this is just to put an end to this frequent refence > > 3. As rightly mentioned by Shri Raman Kannan, numbers /statistics are > useless. Similarly the references to the word "Indian " etc. should be > also avoided in view of the hard fact that Vedic principles are universal > and eternal applicability to man, birds, animals, stones, wind, sky, fire > etc. > > 4.By the same reasoning, references to religion/Hindu religion, "Our" > religion etc. should also be avoided. > > All the above words in various forms can be summed up tersly as "Vedic > principles". > > 5. With due apologies, coming to Ms Swati's (from Hongkong under ID Alambda > one presumes) comments on 'our community", "family planning"," 2-3 > children > per hindu family", are all frankly likely to create further > confusion in that there is no such thing as "hindu family". As per the > Vedic principles, everything is one. Full stop. It is 'We all'. The 'We' > including animals, insects, birds, microbes and the tree and flower and > seeds. > > Further it is somewhat limited to think in terms of > > "one who is not proud of one's religion can very proud of > their own > religion can also be a> catalyst to its down fall, it > need be considered as Hinduism will be erased from > > the face of the earth" > > Anyone fully comprehending the Vedic principles will at once first realize > that there is nothing to be proud about. This is a way, maybe the only > right way, of living and thats it. This is not a religion which one can be > a catalyst etc. ...and therefore the question of erased from the face of > the earth does not arise. Perhaps Hindusim may be erased but Vedic > principles cannot be, because they are without beginning and end.... > > Further her 'Reality' that we should work as a community and not > individually etc. is again not a reality. Reality is the Vedic principles. > Entites do not matter. > > Finally, coming to Shri Gupta's exposition in his so-called article, is > totally baseless and a waste of time, effort. It is impossibe to fathom > the Vedic principles whereas he has taken a finite small sample, examples > from the Rgveda etc. to drive home a point, not understanding that this is > just a minutest particle in the whole ocean of the Vedas. The Vedas abound > in ironical, allogerical, illogical and mysterious commands/references, > prayers, praise, instructions, songs, principles, rules, procedures. It is > deeper than the deepest oceans and equally ancient. So to pluck a very very > limited part and derive an interpretation is totally disturbed channelising > of energies. > > To put the whole concern into perspective, if at all, of any of the various > authors, commentators and writers below, if they are real proponents of the > Vedic principles, do they do the Sandhyavandanam daily 3 times without > fail? if not, none are eligible to even contemplate on the matters > mentioned. If yes, then too there is no need to contemplate on these > because one could have some answers in due course. > > Trust everyone takes this in the proper spirit it is written and not as > something which is written to hurt feelings or critisize just for the sake. > > Regards > > > > > > > Raman Kannan > <rrfamily@yahoo. To: alambda <alambda@xxxx> > com> cc: SrirangaSri@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: [SriRangaSri] Re: Vedas, Hindu scriptures > 02/05/03 08:55 prohibit casteism > PM > > > > > > > Swamin > > Getting alarmed does not help. Hyperbole does not help > either. > Hinduism cannot ever die. If there is one > good confirming vedic practioner our way of life > will survive. > > The fact that the number of hindus increased > from 600 MILL to 800 MILL while say for example > all other denominations increased from 100 MILL > to 300 MILL the percentages have fallen behind. > 600/700 roughly 86% > to 800/1100 roughly 73% > so we should not fall for the statistician trick > present the same set of facts using different norms > and inapplicable and imply something very drastic. > > In the last 50 years population has increased > and the rate of growth has decreased. > > This is what we want. Why should we be alarmed? > > Now the decadence in Indian mind is indeed alaraming. > it is all selfish, > going after money that will not > follow us one minute when we are dead... > this is all very alarming.. > ignoring temples, > not caring for someone who is suffering > and saying that this is all due to caste is alarming. > Is it castes that created the difference. > Is it not the practioners who ill-treated > certain other castes. > mindless and politicians without a conscious > used it to their benefit. We cannot complain about > them either. > > our religion with caste is a superior way of living. > religion without ritual is a brain without a body. > religion without philosophy is a body without brain. > So our religion has all of this and it is complete. > We should be proud to understand and follow to > the fullest extent. There is no room for thinking > less of another gender or another person. > This is not allowed. Anyone who finds a difference > in others is not aware of Gita and its basic > tenents. > > The author instead of stating the facts as it is > tries to invect useless and misleading numbers > in the beginning and then tries to ascribe > it to caste which is at best an irrelevant factor. > Indian mind is corrupt today including IAS/IFS > and all the govt bureacracies. adiyen is first line. > We need to change fundamentally. > What good is it if we cannot lay proper road? > that is where we are... We are also very egotistical > we cannot sit down and think about our problems aloud > without becoming emotional about it. > I can bet that many reading this email will be > inflamed and allow my limitations to ruin their > afternoon getting mad and angry. > They cannot realize I am on the same side as anyone > else who loves and adores and respects our > way of life, going back to gokulum. > adiyen > RK > > --- alambda <alambda@xxxx> wrote: > > Dear Shri Raman, > > > > may I know why and how you say there is no reason to > > be alarmed???? > > the percentage > > of Hindu's may be very high comparing to other > > communities as you put it, > > but the questions should be also how many Hindus > > really knows values of > > Sanathana Dharma, one way not knowing much about our > > own faith can also > > contribute to subject here. > > > > In the real sense one does not become a Hindu by > > just being born in a Hindu > > family, but knowing about the principle of Hinduism > > (Sanathana Dharma) and > > try to uphold its principles and if need be share it > > with other communities. > > ( I am not asking our guys to go out and convert > > others like Christians and > > Islam does) > > > > Gupta's statement can also be taken in different > > sense as one who is not > > very proud of their own religion can also be a > > catalyst to its down fall, it > > need be considered as Hinduism will be erased from > > the face of the earth, > > that is not going to happen, but inspite of 1 > > billion people being Hindus > > and sheer 20-30 million being Jews, we don't need to > > state who hold better > > power/saying in the world affairs. > > > > So, Mr. Gupta's article should not be thrown into a > > back burner, but > > carefully analysed and necessary steps should be > > taken. > > > > Family Planning: we can certainly have 2-3 children > > per hindu family and > > have faith that we can certainly provide for their > > betterment, if not too > > much materialisic gain. That confidence will come > > only if there are enough > > institurion/hospital, exclusively for Hindus, run by > > Hindu communities, that > > is the assurance that Hindu Childrens of the future > > will be taken care. > > These activities are very common in India for > > Islamic childrens, and > > Christians are equally supportive to their own > > community. One need to see > > the Nadar Christian community for this, so, they > > have no worries making more > > childrens, easily 5 per family. Reality is we don't > > talk as a community but > > as an individual, Let us act as a community and you > > can count my > > participation in any level. For sure, we have to > > abandon the Casteism and > > all Hindus are childrens of same Vedic Faith. > > > > hari om > > > > Swathi > > Hong Kong > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Raman Kannan <rrfamily@xxxx> > > To: GV & Shobha Srinivasan > > <shobha.srinivasan@xxxx>; <> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:26 AM > > Subject: Re: [SriRangaSri] Re: Vedas, Hindu > > scriptures prohibit casteism > > > > > > > There is a serious flaw in the argument advanced > > > by this article. > > > The % will go down as the count goes up > > > in other communities. > > > The number of people who believe in hinduisim > > > has not gone down as this article would suggest. > > > > > > The total number of people has not remained > > constant. > > > > > > Other communities have grown out of proportion > > > because majority practice birth control and > > > so it happens more hindus practice family planning > > > than other communities. > > > > > > There are other reasons to ponder the rest of > > > the argument, but let us not be alarmed by > > > declining percentage of hindus in the world > > > or India. > > > -- > > > anandavalli dasan > > > --- GV & Shobha Srinivasan > > > <shobha.srinivasan@xxxx> wrote: > > > > Namaskaram, > > > > > > > > I do not know how many people could see this > > message > > > > below from the website. > > > > I have cut & paste for devotees who could not > > read > > > > from the website. > > > > > > > > This is a very interesting article & hence I am > > > > posting the whole article. > > > > Some agree & some disagree. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Shobha Srinivasan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://news.sify.com/cgi-bin/sifynews/news/content/news_fullstory_v2.jsp?art > > > > > > icle_oid=12564633 > > > > > > > > > > Vedas, Hindu scriptures prohibit casteism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By O.P. Gupta > > > > > > > > Over centuries, the percentage of Hindus in the > > > > world and even in India has > > > > been declining. The share of Hindus in total > > > > population of India was 84.98 > > > > percent in the 1951 census, 82.7 percent in > > 1971, > > > > 82.6 percent in 1981 and > > > > 82.41 percent in 1991. > > > > > > > > In the 2001 census report (table 24), it has > > been > > > > further revised downwards > > > > to 82 per cent in 1991 census. > > > > > > > > This decline warrants serious introspection and > > > > reappraisal of our > > > > socio-religious norms. Whereas Islamic and > > Christian > > > > priests have been > > > > working overtime to seek new converts so as to > > > > increase their demographic > > > > weight, bulk of Hindu priests unaware of > > Rigvedic > > > > norms but, armed with > > > > Manusmriti have been functioning in such manner > > over > > > > last one thousand that > > > > years reduces population of Hindus by making it > > > > difficult for a sizeable > > > > chunk of Hindus (now called ST/SC/Dalits) to let > > > > them remain Hindus with > > > > honour and dignity; and, by not seeking new > > converts > > > > to Hinduism. > > > > > > > > Concepts like castes by birth, upper/lower > > castes, > > > > untouchables and dalits > > > > are expressly prohibited by Rigveda, Ramayana > > and > > > > Shrimad Bhagwat Gita. > > > > > > > > Protagonists of castes by birth cite Purus-Sukta > > > > (X.90.12) of Rigveda and > > > > slokas (IV.13) and (XVIII.41) of Gita. This > > claim is > > > > totally knocked down by > > > > other richas of Rigveda, other slokas of Gita > > and > > > > examples set by Lord Rama. > > > > > > > > There is no birth based caste in Rigveda is > > evident > > > > from simple fact that > > > > names of none of Rigvedic rishis carry any > > present > > > > day caste titles like > > > > Pandit, Sharma, Tripathi, Chaturvedi, Trivedi, > > > > Singh, Gupta and Namboodari. > > > > > > > > Vedas, Valmiki Ramayan and Gita are three and > > only > > > > three supreme religious > > > > scriptures of Hindus. Rigveda has revelations to > > 414 > > > > rishis. Rigveda was > > > > composed around 1500 BC but other school > > believes it > > > > to be older than 5000 > > > === message truncated === > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. 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