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I am responding to "Magnatherm"
In Visishtadvaitha philosophy:
- tatvas: Jeevatmas (Chetanas, avara tatva), Paramatma (Iswara, para tatva)
and Moola Prakriti (achetana, avara tatva) all are 'anadhi' (no begining)
+'anantha' (no end) hence they all have 'swaroopa nityatvam'.
- regarding the samsara (having body due to karma)to the 'baddha' jeevas one
cannot say it is 'nitya'. in this sampradaya when did the baddha jeevatama
entered the body is accepted as 'anadhi'. Every sampradaya/phlosophy have
accepted some forms of 'anadhi' and there is no sampradaya which is either
explicitly or implicitly accepted 'anadhi'.
- There are three types of Jeevatma: 1. Nitya (eg. adhisesha/Garuda): all of
them have non-samsaric nityas as they never and in future also will enter in
to a karmic-body (karmakruta sareeram). 2. Muktas: those jeevas who have
denounced the karmic-body by forcing Sriman Narayana to give moksha either
thro' 'sadhana bakthi" or "prapatti". For muktas samsara 'adhi' is not know
n but 'antham' is known. 3. Badha Jeeva: we all. starting from chatumukha
Brahma to the last grass. both 'adhi' and 'antham' not known.

Hence, there is a lot of difference between 'anadhi' of Jeeva and 'anadhi'
of his/her 'body'. In the case of jeevatma - that swaroopa is there all the
time (nitya). But in the case body to Jeevatma, there exist a first
karmic-body, BUT we dont know when and how it has happened and that is what
we call as anadhi. 

Normally the term 'anadhi' is attributed to an 'action' or 'event' over a
'time' and not to a tatva. (time is an achetana tatva and it is there even
in moksha). However, when we say paramatma is anadhi we mean 'existence' of
paramatma over a time is 'anadhi', meaning He is there all the 'time'.

Kindly corrcet me if I am wrong. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Magnatherm [mailto:magnatherm@xxxx]
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 9:19 AM
To: Ram Anbil; Srirangasri@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; Jaya Krishna; Narender Reddy
Subject: Re: [SriRangaSri] Is not God above desire? Why then a desire
for "Leela"?


"At the beginning when we entered our first body for
the first time"
as far as i know, there is no first even for JEEVATMA. like paramatma
jeevatma is also anadhi.
please correct me if i am wrong.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Narender Reddy" <reddynp@xxxx>
To: "Ram Anbil" <Ramanbil@xxxx>; <Srirangasri@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Jaya
Krishna" <jkdevaki@xxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 4:59 AM
Subject: Re: [SriRangaSri] Is not God above desire? Why then a desire for
"Leela"?


> Dear Bhagavatas:
> The point raised, I believe, is that God has no need to "desire".
> (avaapta samasta kaama:).Why should he "desire" anything at all?.
> Does this not amount to God's deriving a sadistic pleasure in making
> jeevas to play a role and seek to torment them for such role
> if does not fit into his regimen (Sastras)
> This has not been answered.
> Can anyone address this specific question?
> Moderator
> ========================================================================
> Jai Sriman Narayana!
>
> We are the children of God (Sriman Narayana). He is
> all potent and independent. However, we the jiva
> athmas are dependent on Him. This Leela Vibhoothi
> (play ground for God), is like an amusement park for
> us and this amusement park (Leela Vibhoothi) provides
> us with a false sense of independence and transient
> (temporary) happiness. Although the sastras do not
> point out why we are here, they point out that we have
> been here since time immemorial. My feeling is that we
> wanted to visit this like children want to visit a
> magic show or some ammusement park. Some times a child
> may want to dress like the presedent and imitate him,
> or dress like the mother and imitate her, etc.
>
> At the beginning when we entered our first body for
> the first time, we perhaps did not get attached to the
> body but later we got attached to the body after
> living in it for some time. Then the karma came in,
> we have been going through thousands of bodies and
> life cycles.
> We are supposed to be instruments of God, mere actors
> but we got attached to the characters and fell in to
> the bounds of karma. I heard of a story about a play
> in which the person who was playing as Lakshmana got
> so immersed into the play that he physically cut the
> nose of the actor who was playing as surpanaka. If the
> plays directed by orinary humans can be such immersing
> then think of how immersing can be the play of Lord
> Sriman Narayana. Only He can show our real identyity
> and guide us out.
>
> The question at this point should be how to get out of
> it, rather than how we got into it. The portion of the
> Vedas in the leela vibhoothi therefore do not talk
> about how we got into this samsara; they only talk
> about how we can get out of samsara.
>
> In the service of Lord Sri Venkateswara, I remain,
>
> Sincerely
> Narender Reddy
>
>
> --- Ram Anbil <Ramanbil@xxxx> wrote:
> > Dear Bhagavatas:
> >
> > "Jaya Krishna" <jkdevaki@xxxx
> > has posted this interesting question. I would
> > request the members to provide
> > a suitable answer to the query. Thanks.
> > Dasoham
> > Anbil Ramaswamy
> >
> =================================================================
> >
> > Om Namo NaArayanaya
> >
> > Dear Devotees,
> >
> > I introduce myself as a Graduate from IIT Madras and
> > have been working with
> > TCS. I hail from a Vasihnavite family.
> >
> > Much as I tried to understand the Tatva of Lord, my
> > thoughts are coming to
> > halt at a point.
> >
> > I understood that we need to pray God (Bhakthi) and
> > surrender (prapatti)
> > ourselves at His Holy feet. He removes all the
> > difficulties of SamsaAra
> > (Death and Rebirth) and makes us as His eternal
> > servants in the Paramapada
> > to enjoy the permanant bliss.
> >
> > My doubt is...what might be the reason for this
> > Entire Creation/Destruction
> > of God. If we assume this (creation/destruction) as
> > God's 'Iccha' or
> > 'Leela', being God, He himself should not have any
> > desires as He is 'poorna
> > purusha'! Is n't it? Hence, if there is no
> > creation at all, there arises
> > no question of destruction, clinging of our souls in
> > Samsara and other
> > things. He creates us, makes us to enjoy the 'karma
> > phalam', realise Him and
> > then do service to Him. Why God is doing all this?
> > Why the souls are being
> > placed (in the body) and destroyed (removed from the
> > body) repeatedly due to
> > Karma? Why can't God stop this creation at some
> > point of time so that no
> > question of Karma/Liberation of souls would not
> > arise?
> >
> > I may be asking this question out of sheer ignorance
> > as am a
> > beginner/learner of Sri Vaishnava Samparadayam.
> > Please correct me in this
> > regard. Adiyen humbly requests all the devottes to
> > help him in this regard.
> >
> > Pranamams,
> >
> > Jayakrishna DaAsan.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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